regarding your part 1, who cares about less scrupulous people and how they arrive at there results?

A long time ago when I first started this, a couple of posts were so ridiculously accurate that they practically named the individual. It spoiled it for everyone else. I tried to ignore it, but it became too obvious what was being done. So I switched formats and with a suggestion from Deb, started doing it this way.

I'll eventually post the data or maybe the charts with the outers and without the data after a while.

One of the more intriguing aspects of this kind of exercise is watching people get close with their observations, even if they don't get it perfectly. It shows how astrology really works. I vaguely recall an old one where someone, but I can't recall whom, got it perfectly, but then drew the wrong final conclusion. The final conclusion was perfectly logical, but it did not play out that way in the life. It could have, but it didn't.

This tells me that we may be trying to tease too much out of a chart or possibly we aren't adequately using the tools at our disposal. Please don't misunderstand. I am most definitely not criticizing anyone for anything they say. This isn't a "guess who" type challenge, but rather to apply what we know to a blind chart with zero background information. That is damn difficult, and I am very happy that so many people seem to enjoy it and are willing to have a go at it. Keep it up.

Good to know he is a pianist. Up to now I think I had been looking at charts mostly of vocalists. It occurs within the label 'musicians' there are three broad categories-composers, instrument players and vocalists. Still, , these categories are not necessarily separate and some modern singer-song writers manage to combine all three roles together. Even within the category of instrument player I imagine the skill of playing say the electric guitar, saxophone, flute, drums and piano all call for a rather different skill set.

Playing the piano calls for numerous skills. Learning this instrument takes a lot of hard work and persistence. It also requires a degree of dexterity and mind/body co-ordination. Classically, trained musicians also require the ability to read music.

As James said there is probably no simplistic signature for a musician. However, I am thinking a good Moon-Mercury connection would be extremely helpful for a pianist. The only chart that has that kind of aspect is chart 3. Although Chart 1 has both planets in House 5. However, would all the fixity there be appropriate? Certainly for single mindedness. However, what about the mental versatility and enhanced physical co-ordination required by a pianist? Is that more a cardinal or mutable quality?

Keen observers will have noticed I have now seen reasons to support all 3 charts. Maybe it will all be clearer after a good nights sleep.....

Mark

This is just funny but may be too many planets in libra helps the musicians with "Scales (musical)"

Off topic but has anyone come across major and minor scales associated with astrological signs or any of the 7 notes associated with the 7 traditional planets.

Greeks worked on moods and scales.


http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-se ... -music.htm

And some recent-
http://alternatingfrequencies.com/2b4/i ... opic=769.0




PD

Good to know he is a pianist.

I think in the future I will more clearly define my terms. Mark is thinking in terms of a vocalist and now includes instruments, but composers and lyricists are musicians, too. In the US one of the best known musicians, and since I'm telling you who he is, he isn't one of the charts, is Quincy Jones. He's a composer and arranger mostly and no one would ever think of him as anything other than a musician.

I love this story: Jazz trumpet player Dizzy Gillespie once sat down and played a duet with a snake charmer. When asked why, Diz replied , "He's a musician ain't he?" Hard to argue with that. Hard to argue with his nickname, too.

Our chart is that of a man who is a piano player, but did other musical things, too. I doubt that would make a difference in the chart.

I think that the first chart is that of a music composer or singer/songwriter.
The Cancer rising is melodically very mellow and the ruler Moon in Scorpio in 5th is very creative. The Sun in Sagittarius is also pointing out to a composer (I've read a statistic that Sags makes the most of the composers in the world).
Venus in Capricorn can give a very good singer, therefore I would go with singer/songwriter.

I would go with Chart 1, Moon ruler of Ascendant in 5th, separating from Mars and applying to Venus (exaltation ruler of MC and ruler of 5th). Venus in sect and in good solar phase. Venus is also received by Saturn.

I'm torn between charts 1 and 2

Venus conjunct Mercury both trine the MC and from the creative 5th house. THis would strike me as the more creative of the three charts. Whether that creativity is musical or not I'm less sure about. I'm just hoping the three charts are different enough that one is easily the more obvious. If these are the charts of say a musician, a graphic designer and a painter then my theory is screwed.


Also, as for eminence, I've tried not to read any other replies but Tom's so as to not be swayed by other people's opinions, but was it said anywhere that this person achieved eminence or fame? The world is full of musicians, not all of them are famous or achieved eminence, and Tom stated in his opening post that he is not saying whether they are famous or not.


Chart one has a lot going for it too with venus not combust as it is in the second chart and also angular, plus the MC is the sign of its exaltation. Of course venus applies to a malefic in this chart.
It's hard to know, which is better - a 5th house venus which is combust, or an angular venus aspecting a malefic.

I would have thought the third chart is good for eminence but not sure about music. Like military or politics or something. The first two seem the more creative than this one.

(what do I feel like it will have to be only one that I ruled out completely and will be chart 3 all along!)

delete

Hi Tom

For me it is between chart 1 and 3. Nothing in chart 2 strikes me as particularly expressive of musical talent. At first glance chart 3 looks the most obvious, but the MC ruler is not well placed in Libra and the planetary contacts to the MC are the Sun-Saturn opposition. It all seems a bit 'dry' and that looks to me like someone who does something for a living which is considered a task, or something heavy and serious, rather than something that is based on personal enjoyment. I'm supposing that any professional musician must find a sense of delight in music.

So I opt for chart 1, which I initially dismissed because of the Saturn contacts and debiliated state of the MC ruler. Now I am thinking that a pianist must have a good sense of structure and timing, and be able to practice hard, but still find it enjoyable. The key point for me is angular Venus in Capricorn on the sextile of the MC where it is exalted, and making good aspects to Mercury in the 5th and Saturn on the IC, which is joined to the MC ruler. I've noted many times that actors, musicians and those who perform in the arts as a profession have either a luminary or the MC ruler in the 5th house, so I'll opt for chart 1, with chart 3 as my second choice.

Tom - how long will you be running this before you give the answer away?

Maybe we could have at least until tomorrow evening so I can make a contribution.

i think the concept of musical 'talent' is a bad joke on people in relation to music. from my point of view, it is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration.. courage to believe in oneself is a critical ingredient, with hard work the essential building block.. i don't believe in talent when it comes to music and think it mainly discourages many who might do quite well in music if they had more confidence in themselves..

about the part of fortune, since this is a traditional forum and it is a part of the chart.. i don't see anyone using it which makes me think it is primarily a "dumb note" that traditional astrologers pay lip service to, but not much else.. from what i know of the pof, the position of the ruler of the pof is considered very relevant with the 10th house position from the pof being the best spot for the ruler to be. perhaps angular is the next best.. having the benefics able to 'see' the pof is also helpful, while having the malefics unable to see would probably be helpful too, but this is just my limited understanding of the pof and others here who practice trad astrology can bring me up to speed on this..

chart 1 has pof in the 2nd with ruler in the 6th - overall not so good according to my understanding.. however the ruler is the sun and it is in pof 5th house, so that would be considered good. pof can't see the benefics, but is being opposed by mars..

chart 2 has pof in the 12th with ruler in the 6th as well, so not so good here either according to my limited understanding.. however, the ruler of the pof is in pof's 7th house, offset by being in capricorn.. jupiter position is very helpful to pof in this chart being in the same house and pof's first house..

chart 3 has pof in 10th or 11th house which would be considered the best of the 3, while ruler mercury is in the 12th house-whole signs) and in the 2nd from pof which is more of a mixed bag. sun - saturn opposition is in pof 3rd/9th house while the libra stellium is in pof house 2. i think music a little bit with libra in the 2nd, but no so much with sun-saturn over the 3-9 axis.

perhaps i could have given the pof more of a musical spin.. what signs/houses/elements define music more according to others here? i would be curious to read others comments on this.. to me leo and fire can definitely be a part of it, as can the 5th house. i wouldn't exclude any element, sign or house, but i think water shows up more often as well.. this is a very subjective pov i am sharing without any statistical back up..


the other dumb note in the chart that no one has talked about would be the nodal axis.. perhaps someone else can comment on this if it is going to be part of what is included in these charts, while the outers are excluded.. i want to know what others see here using the tools provided. thanks..