Youre probably right. I just checked out the X Files site and Curtis has a section Heliacal Rising and Setting, sample there of Muhammed Ali. At the bottom it list phasis times and seems to include risings and settings?

Tienka Atema wrote:It is interesting that Tiger Woods has his Mars in Gemini, Venus in Scorpio, Mercury in Capricorn, Federer has Mars in Cancer, Venus in Virgo on the ascendant, Mercury in Leo, Navratilova Venus in Virgo, Mars in Pisces, Mercury in Libra.
Virgo/Gemini/Mercury/Venus/Sun or Mars in a Mercury ruled sign seem to be important in these type of charts, but that is in not based on any statistics.
It just caught my eye

You listed probably the greatest athletes of the last 25 years. These correlations are truly amazing!

Deb wrote:I would think they only meant it to refer to the rising. The Greek word phasis and its Latin equivalent phainomena are plural forms of the verb which in its passive tense means to be making an appearance or be seen. So strictly speaking planets are only making a phasis when making their appearances, not when they are dissappearing in their settings.

I have always thinking of "phase" like in Italian:

phase: "period or moment which is changed in comparison to a preceding one , peculiar moment of a phenomena".

In every case Paulus Alexandrinus page 26 of Hindsight translation: "the wandering stars make phases in relation to the Sun, sometimes morning risings or evening settings, other times evening rising and morning settings.... "

The quote of the 7 days (I did not know your quote, thanks) is in the same translation page 59 last lines when he says that the planets ruling actions should be in their phase (here Paulus mentions their stronger one, matutine for outers and vespertine for inners) in 7 days before or after the birth.

I understand and absolutely agree with you what Paul mentioned is the best phase, but in every case I don't think it is a problem of dignity, essential or accidental, I believe more that the real point is that a planet in a phase is especially stressed.

Moreover we choice we have, Venus rules the MC by exaltation (if the birth time is right), but no aspect and no phase and in the wrong side.

Mercury in a way or another is doing a phase in 24h, it is in the right side and it is with Mars, and both planets are connected with sport.

For me it is an obvious choice rather than saying that Messi could be a painter, and is doing the wrong work...

margherita

Thanks Margherita

I don't have any problem with using the word 'phasis' to mean that an important phase is taking place. Guiseppe Bezza was the one who stressed to me the importance of understanding the meaning of the Greek word correctly, to mean something that is being brought out into manifestation in its visible appearance. However, as I see it the use of the word 'phasis' for a rising or setting is no different to the use of the word 'phase' - it has a more liberal meaning in a more general sense. It's only the principle that matters, and the need to be clear about which phases make the planets powerful in their expression.

The quote of the 7 days (I did not know your quote, thanks) is in the same translation page 59 last lines when he says that the planets ruling actions should be in their phase (here Paulus mentions their stronger one, matutine for outers and vespertine for inners) in 7 days before or after the birth.

Do you mean p.59 of the Project Hinsight edition of Paulus, published in 1993? I have that but don't see anything that refers to this on that page. Or do you mean p.59 of the Bezza translation? I did try, but couldn't find it there either.

Moreover we choice we have, Venus rules the MC by exaltation (if the birth time is right), but no aspect and no phase and in the wrong side.

But the degree of Venus is on the sq of the degree of the MC isn't it? Am I looking at the wrong chart? Considering phase alone I think we would have to conclude that Venus in the Messi chart is in a stronger position than Mercury, despite being oriental. It is in a position that Bonatti (III.II.6) and Alcabitius (III.10) - as two examples I have to hand - define as 'oriental strong'. This is described as being the most expressive part of the oriental side of the inferior planet cycles.

But this is what Bonatti writes regarding the phase that Mercury has held since it turned retrograde:
"Then up until they come to the rays of the Sun, they are called occidental retrograde or most debilitated. After they begin to go under the rays of the Sun, they are called occidental combust".

The best phase for an inferior planet is occidental rising of course; but it is generally held that an inferior planet is in a stronger position when rising as an oriental planet, as Venus is for Messi, than setting as an occidental one, as Mercury is.

Phase isn't everything though - to me it is most reliable when indicating the strength that planets get when various sect considerations fit together. Also, I don't think the significators of profession have to be Venus or Mercury or Mars in this chart. Since all of them have their own relations to the MC and its ruler, surely each one contributes something - as does Jupiter (primarily), the Moon, and Saturn in opposition to Venus.

Because his midheaven gathers together so many strong planetary contacts we can see that this is someone whose career matters a lot and there will be lots of sides to it. Sport comes from the MC-ruler's closest aspect being the square of Mars. Venus doesn't have to be a painter; Messi is also a public entertainer. He is described as being ultra-famous, though I've never heard of him. Somewhere in his professional status, there should be some signature of him being a 'celebrity' who gains applause, fame and popular appeal though his work. I guess there has to be a certain sort of artistry in the game that makes him gain the notability he has. (Incidentally, sport is traditionally listed under Venusian pursuits, like 'jousting' -"jesting", it's supposed to be playful warfare, so I think bringing the significance of Venus and Mars together could fit there too).

Deb wrote:Incidentally, sport is traditionally listed under Venusian pursuits, like 'jousting' -"jesting", it's supposed to be playful warfare, so I think bringing the significance of Venus and Mars together could fit there too.

Hi Deb,

wouldn't this be the sport itself though rather then the participants? I always took the professional significators to be what the person used in their profession rather than a direct description of the profession itself. I can see why people would think that football would be slightly Venusian but, to me, the structure of the game, its tactics and intricacies would suggest more of a Mercury and Mars mix when actually involved in it. I mean just the mental and physical dexterity alone would suggest Mercury to me.

I agree that Mercury shows the dexterity, etc. Personally I see nothing Venusian whatsover in football, but then I have more than a disinterest - I really dislike it. Years ago some friends made a big issue about how I would change my mind if I went to a big game. I did - never again; hated every moment. I only recognise 3 names in Tienka's list.

I think the idea of Venus and sport fits iwith the idea that the 5th house is the joy of Venus and both can be significant to sport and 'gaming'. So it's a very general thing, but where Lilly refers to it he talks about how you would identify the means to wealth if the planet that most promised wealth was lord of the 5th house and suggest (CA p.169). "if a gentleman (by play, cards, dice, sport, pastimes) .. if an ordinary man... keeping an ... ale-house, Inn, Tavern, Bowling alley". ILilly never recommended judging anything on one single testimony. but I thought I would mention it because Venus is the 5th house ruler in this chart.

i find the comments on this thread very interesting.. i have greenbaums book on paulus, but not these other ones being referred to.. i am 1/2 thru it and have to say i have not gotten as a clear an image as what is being presented here on planetary phase.. perhaps i missed it, or it is yet to come in the book. with regard to messis chart - a b rated chart i believe with the 6 am time - how do folks here view a mercury going retrograde? it would seem to me to be a weak part of it's planetary phase, but perhaps someone more knowledgeable can comment.. i have always considered planets changing direction as powerful moments in the planets cycle and having great bearing on the chart.. perhaps a stronger understanding of planetary phase is what i am missing in all of this..

margherita wrote: Moreover why we should take Venus? Messi is a soccer champion.

Because by Ptolemy planet which rising before Sun should be taken in consideration as a professional significator (also planets having strength at MC degree), among other significators.
Since Venus angular, aspecting MC and not peregrine planet (in own term)it can't be simply disregarded. Moreover Venus ruling his 5th house and he's a great soccer "performer".

Some replies to Deborah (women first) and Yuri

Yuriy wrote:
Since Venus angular, aspecting MC and not peregrine planet (in own term)it can't be simply disregarded. Moreover Venus ruling his 5th house and he's a great soccer "performer".

That's not the method I follow. My method is Ptolemy's and Paulus (which is the same) one: there is no such a thing like the ruler of the 5th house. Significators should be taken because they rule MC or in phase to the Sun and in the houses which are active.

[quote="Deborah""]Do you mean p.59 of the Project Hinsight edition of Paulus, published in 1993? I have that but don't see anything that refers to this on that page. Or do you mean p.59 of the Bezza translation? I did try, but couldn't find it there either. [/quote]

yes, p.59 of Hindsight edition, page 113 Bezza edition.
margherita

I second your post Deb.

I was going to write something similar but now that you have done it I will focus on further differentiating the professional significator.
Unfortunately there is not enough personal information about Messi (excluding football statistics) and even some false autobiograhies have been written about him. He is expected to publish his one some time in the future. When he does, then it will be much easier.
Also, the thing is that his chart does not behave at all, as I like to say. Not only many planets aspect the MC, as you wrote, but Mercury disposes Venus and the Moon and Mercury is conjunct the antiscion of Venus, which really complicates things.
Nevetheless, as I wrote in my first post, I firmly maintain that it is Venus which is the main professional significator, with Mercury and Jupiter participating. So it is not either or, it is both, but Venus is the leading one.
And the the accidents of this native prove that to a large extent. I took all data from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Messi Here is what I discovered today:

When the Sun was directed to Venus in mid September 2005,

?On 16 September, for the second time in three months, Barcelona announced an update to Messi's contract; this time it was improved to pay him as a first team member and extended until June 2014. Messi obtained Spanish citizenship on 26 September 2005.

I don?t think this primary direction requires any explanation, but still ? we have an unimpeded benefic natally in the 2nd House coming to the body to the significator of profession which is the Almuten of the MC and is in the Asc, also conjunct the Moon, ruler of the second ? a significant amount of money coming to the native as a result of his profession and his own name and actions. Of course the change of citizenship concerns one?s status ? 10th House, ruled by Venus.

On Oct 5 2005 we have the Moon, with latitude, coming to the conjunction of the Lot of Profession ? the Moon rules the 2nd House of finances, aspects the MC and is in the Asc and conjunct Venus, hence she also participates in the profession and brings popularity and money.

Messi made his full debut for the Argentina senior national football team on August 17 2005 ? at that time the profected Moon came within 3 days of the opposition of natal Venus, made a square to the MC and was moving to the conjunction of natal Saturn within 6 days. We have Venus activated again.

Between June 29-September 2009 when the square of the MC was directed to the Lot of Profession (which is in Taurus) and when Venus was also at the same time directed to the conjunction of the Lot of Profession, Messi established the Leo Messi Foundation, a charity supporting access to education and health care for vulnerable children.

It does not say the month when this happened. Still the profections help. I do not know where he was on his birthday so I will use his natal place of birth.

The profections help because in 2007-2008 Messi had a 9th House year ruled by Saturn and this activates the opposition with Venus and the Moon and at the same time his natal Ascendant reached the 5th House of children and of course Venus especially and to an extent the Moon signify children. Also, Venus rules the natal 5th House where Saturn, the Lord of the Year, is exalted.

So in the natal location revolution for 2007, we have Venus conjunct Saturn in the 5th House and Saturn rules the revolution 10th and 11th and the 11th natal House rises where Jupiter is placed and Jupiter rules children, mercy etc.

I don?t see how more obvious it can get.

At the same time from Aug 2006 to 2011 Venus rules the term of the MC and Mercury, the sign ruler of the Ascendant and Almutem Figuris enters the term of Venus in June 2006 (if Morinus calculates this correctly)

On December 1 2009 Messi won his first Golden Ball ? the highest individual prize for a football player. At that time, with the 6 am chart, by converse Solar arc, the Head of the Dragon was at 15.48 Pisces conjunct his MC within 48 minutes. If we move the time with 2 minutes and 27 seconds ahead the aspect becomes exact. Note: I have used this time to for the other directions ? 6.02 27 am.

On January 9 2012 Messi received his 3rd Golden Ball - only 3 other football players have done that in football history (it must be said that it was not until 1995 when it was made possible for non-Europeans to win the Golden Ball). At that time, the Sun at 25.44 Cancer, was conjunct the antiscion of the natal Ascendant (4.28 Gemini), by converse Solar arc., within 12 minutes.

But as I said, Mercury also participates in the profession. He rules the term of both the Ascendant and MC. On November 16 2003 Messi played his first match for the Barcelona senior team. In that year?s revolution we had a Venus-Mercury conjunction in Gemini that reached the place of natal Venus and Moon and of course he had a 5th House year by profections, ruled by Venus.

When it comes to injuries it is difficult to distinguish Mercury for the profession because he is the ruler of the Ascendant after all. In the 2005 revolution he had a Venus Mercury Saturn conjunction in Cancer come to the place of natal Mars, ruler of the natal 6th and Venus ruled the revolution 12th of hospitals and major illness. At the same time his Hilaj Moon was opposing this triple conjunction in the revolution, the Lord of the Year was Jupiter and he was in the revolution 12th and opposed by Mars ruling the revolution Ascendant and in the return 6th. His season ended prematurely on 7 March 2006, however, when he suffered a muscle tear in his right thigh against Chelsea. At that time the there was a sinister sextile of his Hilaj Moon directed to Mars dated on February 23 2006.

About Margherita? sarcastic remarks about determining Venus as the professional significator.
You Margherita obviously approach Astrology in a different way than I do. I never study a planet only by its universal nature as you have done. In this chart Venus is modified first by its House position and the masculine sign it is, then by the Moon conjunction, then by the Saturn opposition, then by the Mercury antiscion, then by her dispositor Mercury, then by her being oriental and coming out of the beams of the Sun, then by being in her own term, then by being in the decan of Mars, then by being in the 12th part of Sagittarius, then by ruling the 5th and 10th House, the Lots of Spirit, Profession, Siblings, Children, Illness, Resignation, Adultery in Marriage, etc etc.
Thus and because of all these modifications can besides painters Venus show dozens of other professions. And after all, she is in a sign of agility lightness and mobility as you said.
I never wrote that Venus rules football, I do not think it is that simple because with very very few exceptions everything is a mixture, and this is particularly true for professions.

But football and especially this modern version is definitely not ruled by Mars. Yes it has physical contact and Mars is partnering in signification but in its essence, this sport is about outsmarting the opponent and trying to deceive them. For example you can?t severely injure the opponent because there are sanctions, but you could do that if the referee has turned their back from you and will not see you. Also, this sport has increasingly become one of simulation and trying to deceive the referee so that he gives the harshest punishment ? penalty, which is 90% a certain goal. Also, trying to convince the referees that you have been hit or maltreated so that they send an opponent off thus reducing the numbers of your opponent for the rest of the match. In fact, I have heard from other athletes, especially from tough sports such a rugby, wrestling, hockey etc say that football is not played by real men, but by cowards and ballerinas, because they would never go for such deception and trickery.

Also and for this reason, how does the defence of a team act in most cases? They are trying to move in a such a way so that the attacking players of the opponent are placed in an offside position. Words are difficult to explain this, you have to see it. It is a mixture of Venus and Mercury: one moment it looks like one team is about to concede a goal and is in a very vulnerable position, but in the other, the defenders have moved forward and placed the attacking players of the opponent in offside, thus not only eliminating the danger but gaining possession of the ball.
Moreover how are goals increasingly scored? From outsmarting the opponent?s defence by starting to run for the ball about 1 second before the defenders move forward and try to place you in an offside position.


I have done enough digging on this chart and provided evidence. If someone wants to disprove that by showing how Venus is not related at all to the profession they can always try but do so from the chart and not from what somebody wrote (Tienka Atema quoted 2 other ancient authors and I agreed with that testimony in my first sentence about the significator of profession; I did not make anything up )

I was about to post this when I saw Margherita?s reply. Dear, you are not playing fair or have not understood what the text says. I will post the first paragraph as well.

Therefore Venus is not only "set up on those places and on Fortune" but is to be preferred because of other considerations as well, namely Venus is astronomically visible, coming out of the Sun?s beams, receiving the application of the Moon, ruling the Lots of Spirit and Profession, being the exalted ruler and the MC and most closely aspecting the MC.

It will be indeed difficult for me to think of another natal chart with a potential professional significator that meets all these criteria.

Zagata wrote:I

About Margherita? sarcastic remarks about determining Venus as the professional significator.
You Margherita obviously approach Astrology in a different way than I do. I never study a planet only by its universal nature as you have done. In this chart Venus is modified first by its House position and the masculine sign it is, then by the Moon conjunction, then by the Saturn opposition, then by the Mercury antiscion, then by her dispositor Mercury, then by her being oriental and coming out of the beams of the Sun, then by being in her own term, then by being in the decan of Mars, then by being in the 12th part of Sagittarius, then by ruling the 5th and 10th House, the Lots of Spirit, Profession, Siblings, Children, Illness, Resignation, Adultery in Marriage, etc etc.
Thus and because of all these modifications can besides painters Venus show dozens of other professions. And after all, she is in a sign of agility lightness and mobility as you said.

Mine would not be a sarcastic comment, sorry if it looked like that.

And did not post the rest of the paragraph only because I don't want violate Hindsight copyright, it seems to me I gave the page, true? Schmidt books are not so rare, I believe

It is just that I don't use the same method as you, I am accustomed to give more importance to significators because Cieloeterra methods are greatly based on Ptolemy .

Here Venus is oriental (and it should be vespertine) and in no phase (it is visible and will be visible in the 7 following day), while on the other hand Mercury is vespertine, visible, and in phase (the day after it will become invisible), and with Mars.

Messi is a soccer champion, for me it is very difficult to think something farther than Venus. It is s men sport, where the only important thing is to win and humiliate the other team and its supporters. There is no place for De Coubertin.

In every case it is not obvious a problem if people choose different methods, I just explained mine.

margherita

margherita wrote:Messi is a soccer champion, for me it is very difficult to think something farther than Venus. It is s men sport, where the only important thing is to win and humiliate the other team and its supporters. There is no place for De Coubertin.

I agree. Also football isn't so far away from warfare as some people seem to think. The point in ancient warfare was to set-up a formation and defend space while trying to out-maneuver the other army, forcing them to leave gaps in their defence which you would then penetrate with fast units. Using the infantry to close space and the cavalry to open it up. I don't think anyone would liken ancient warfare to Venus.

Football may look beautiful but it is the result of hours and hours of practice on defensive and attacking drills. The game is played in geometric patterns (triangles primarily) and players like Messi wouldn't get anywhere without these movements and formations.