jorge wrote: Hi Paul

I agree i may have over read what he said.
I just been reading what he says about Sun in Libra and Aquarius.
This leads me to believe we cannot dismiss the idea that the sun signs do not work so well for Southern Hemisphere. To say that season is just not that important is to ignore the facts. The detriment and fall of Aquarius and libra under the Sun are clearly based on season,but people think it is related to season only symbolically. Doesnt really appear to be the case.

Jorge

This is a separate issue not pertaining to either sect nor to the the x-files website suggesting that to be born at night means you have no sense of right and wrong.

Paul wrote:

jorge wrote: Hi Paul

I agree i may have over read what he said.
I just been reading what he says about Sun in Libra and Aquarius.
This leads me to believe we cannot dismiss the idea that the sun signs do not work so well for Southern Hemisphere. To say that season is just not that important is to ignore the facts. The detriment and fall of Aquarius and libra under the Sun are clearly based on season,but people think it is related to season only symbolically. Doesnt really appear to be the case.

Jorge

This is a separate issue not pertaining to either sect nor to the the x-files website suggesting that to be born at night means you have no sense of right and wrong.

I did not say that being born at night causes lack of the knowledge of right and wrong. I said that being born during the day gives one a clearer sense of right and wrong (aka - more confidence in what one should do), but I did not say why (I'll explain below) and I gather that because of this you thought I implied the opposite goes for night births. Valens does give indications for spotting unethical individuals using the lot of theft for example. I am not saying everyone born at night is immoral or unethical, but what it potentially does is place one in circumstances where it becomes very difficult to see the correct path out of any morally ambiguous situation because planets contrary to the sect tend to behave against the native's best interests. The diurnal sect implies Saturn and Jupiter (limits and Nous) functioning in a clear cut manner usually in the native's best interest, and therefore such would tend to have little doubt about what path to take at critical moments or remain relatively untested, whereas a nocturnal birth may potentially tax your prudence.

The question that comes to mind, is why did you not ask me directly?

There are other Parts that may be related to morality:
- the Part of Wisdom (Asc + Saturn - Sun for night and reverse for day);
- the Part of Deep Reflection (Asc + Moon - Saturn for night and reverse for day);
- the Part of Reason or Eloquence (Asc + Mars - Mercury for night and opposite for day);
- the Part of Faith (Asc + Moon - Mercury for night and opposite for day).

Obviously, not to miss the Part of Spirit...

Interesting point Curtis, but tell me if I'm understanding this correctly:

I am not saying everyone born at night is immoral or unethical, but what it potentially does is place one in circumstances where it becomes very difficult to see the correct path out of any morally ambiguous situation because planets contrary to the sect tend to behave against the native's best interests.

For the sake of argument I accept your interpretation. However, why would this be limited to night charts? Day charts can also have planets out of sect. Is your reasoning based on the Sun, which is powerful by nature and therefore is always weakened in a nocturnal chart, and while the same is true of all diurnal planets in nocturnal charts, the impact is less than the impact of the Sun because those planets are not as powerful as the Sun in the first place? Just wondering.

Tom wrote:Interesting point Curtis, but tell me if I'm understanding this correctly:

I am not saying everyone born at night is immoral or unethical, but what it potentially does is place one in circumstances where it becomes very difficult to see the correct path out of any morally ambiguous situation because planets contrary to the sect tend to behave against the native's best interests.

For the sake of argument I accept your interpretation. However, why would this be limited to night charts? Day charts can also have planets out of sect. Is your reasoning based on the Sun, which is powerful by nature and therefore is always weakened in a nocturnal chart, and while the same is true of all diurnal planets in nocturnal charts, the impact is less than the impact of the Sun because those planets are not as powerful as the Sun in the first place? Just wondering.

It isn't limited to night charts, but one must start the analysis somewhere. There are lots of people born during the day whose morals I might question (for instance a contrary to sect Mars in the 9th would suggest sacrilege, impious, a hater of religion, etc - whether this is really wrong who is to say, but the perception of others born to this world might be so). What Saturn does is set limitations and Jupiter gives knowledge of how things work. At night, Chuck Bucek states the "limitless" is given priority. So a life that has been defined to follow a course from the point of view of heimarmene to lack boundaries, combined with a lack of certainty of how to proceed (Jupiter) one can end up in morally ambiguous circumstances, conflicts of interest, etc...

Maybe I need to put my disclaimer on the dangers of "cookbooking astrology" on every page of my site instead of just on the index. People don't "surf the web" anymore but use Google as their index page for your site (figuratively speaking).

Sometimes I wonder what people are thinking, because I just saw a search term from my Google Analytics that read "how to find evil spirits in the horoscope". I can also remember a while back seeing "where is my Libra" and "Taurus in Mercury"...

Curtis,

I know you've touched on the issue of cookbook astrology, but I think the issue here is of relying too much on universal or general significators.

I have trouble with the idea of using Jupiter as a universal or general significator to sufficiently cover the issue of the chart native and his/her application of ethics and morality. There's a lot that goes into making a person moral or ethical. For example, wouldn't the Sun serve to indicate whether the person has the will, and even courage, to act ethically or morally? Also, the Sun has traditional astrological associations with the intellect. It sheds light on matters and brings things to awareness. A chart with a strong, healthy Sun would seem to point to enlightened awareness.

Mercury is a big factor in showing how to rationally pick something apart, analyze it, and see where things stand strong or come up short. Mercury takes a look at the issues, with Jupiter providing the measure and standard of strong or weak ethics and morals, the awareness of them. It seems to me that Mercury is valuable in order to bring awareness of the issue to consciousness ? ?to see the correct path out of any morally ambiguous situation?, as you put it. You wrote:

I am not saying everyone born at night is immoral or unethical, but what it potentially does is place one in circumstances where it becomes very difficult to see the correct path out of any morally ambiguous situation because planets contrary to the sect tend to behave against the native's best interests.

I say that Mercury provides the ability or lack thereof to see the situation, with Jupiter providing the awareness that such standards even exist

Rather than rely too much, or much at all, on Jupiter regarding whether the chart native clearly perceives or cares about matters of ethics and morals, I would want to see what is indicated by the general temperament of the person, the ASC and its lord, Mercury, Sun, and even the Moon. Venus, even. Venus in Aries is probably going to focus on self and self's desires, whereas Venus in Aquarius is going to have a more socially conscious outlook. To me, nocturnal Venus in Aries as ruler of the ASC in a diurnal chart would say more about the possible lack of ethics and morality than would a relatively unimportant and obscure Jupiter in that same diurnal chart.

The sect condition of Jupiter would appear to be, according to my still astrologically confused mind [sigh], of a considerably reduced importance than you appear to give it regarding a suffering sense of ethics and morals. The same with the other planets and their significations.

Kirk wrote:The sect condition of Jupiter would appear to be, according to my still astrologically confused mind [sigh], of a considerably reduced importance than you appear to give it regarding a suffering sense of ethics and morals. The same with the other planets and their significations.

If you take it out of context, then yes you can balloon the whole thing out of proportion. Suffice it to say Jupiter is not the only planet I look at, but like I said, you have to start somewhere.

First of all, I started studying astrology before all this traditional stuff was out there (around 1974-75) and my counseling style came from Dane Rudhyar and Noel Tyl. I was a modern psychological astrologer through and through for nearly 20 years before Project Hindsight even got started. When Uranus and Neptune were conjunct my Saturn in the 3rd house I went through considerable confusion and reorientation of my mind to handle the traditional stuff. This was the period during which you see what I wrote.

As I said, there are so many pages written so long ago and I haven't time to update it all. Once I took nearly the whole site down in fall 2008 for a year and people complained (I left up about 25 pages relating to my software only). Mostly it was because I didn't have a way to fish out 50,000 + links to get rid of the few pages I wanted gone without breaking the website, but partly it was because I don't fully agree with what is up online anymore. After considerable pestering from others online, I eventually put this material back up. I have been slowly rewriting some of it, but at 1300+ pages it is going to take quite a while.