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13 by ###
The scientific model is what has enthralled and led society for, what, about 3 centuries now. Its rise coincides with the plummet of western astrology roughly starting in the late 17th century. Now astrology is so often forced to follow that model, even as subtly as in the manner a chart is 'analyzed' and in how it is grouped with other charts for statistical measurement, thus providing someone with some sort of 'valid' information.

It's not at all surprising that the majority of astrologers use their minds as they have been taught to use them, to follow the model they've been told is the true way to 'knowledge'. It's just kind of the way of the world. Divination is one of those words that make even many astrologers squirm. But that's slowly changing.

So it seems to me a certain type or quality of person has an inbuilt ability to understand human nature without needing to study it formally.
YES! But we are taught to not trust that, to treat it as insufficient. We truly do have an innate sense to help us find the right people to ask for their help.

14 by Nixx
Paul wrote:

I mean this in the sense that I let other people have their own moral compass. It seems unethical to me to talk about people in terms of 'a better caste' or a 'lower caste' - so to ask "should I wait for someone from a better caste to come along?" just seems highly unethical to me, it's just not the right way to think about marriage in my mind. But that's in my mind. Not in this woman's. In her world, with her moral compass, this is not only perfectly fine, but perfectly normal too. So I will be amoral on these issues provided that they are not illegal. In other words, I'll bow to the fact that the person has come to me for astrology, not for my proselytzing(sp?) or badgering them with right and wrong as though they are children or incapable of deciding their own moral compass. In that sense, as an astrologer, I am primarily a translator, translating the astrological symbolism rather than placing value judgements on it.
Years ago I used to train Social Workers and ethical concerns were , not surprisingly, central to most discussions.

One question was what should you say to your colleague from Borneo who comes in every day with a Human baby and Mayonaise sandwich.

So putting this in a Horary context, if you went to Borneo on holiday and set up as a Horary astrologer on the beach. A person arrives and asks you are Tuna Mayonaise sandwiches better for my health than Human baby and mayonaise sandwiches. Are there any ethical considerations for you here which would persuade you the question should or should not be answered through the lens of a Horary chart ?

Nb- In case you did not know, in some tribes there cannibalism is socially acceptable or culturally valued.

Knowing you as I do you might think this is a trick question, but it isn't.

If anyone else has a view I would be intrigued to hear it. It may be worth pointing out the Social Workers found it very challenging. (Most thought it was a joke question at first).

15 by james_m
hi lakewind,

i am glad you started the thread! thanks.

everyone has something interesting to say. if astrologers can do something positive to help others, maybe they can unknowingly do something that is counter productive too.. interacting with a person who knows nothing about astrology, you are like a healer or not to that person who is seeking some healing. some folks are going to be better at this then others..someone, maybe paul said on the other thread it is up to the individual astrologer to work out what is ethical in their own mind and that makes sense in a simple way. i wonder if certain questions in horary give the impression of horary astrology as some silly parlor game where one is looking for an answer but it is not all that important, or it is something that is going to be worked out over the course of time and someone can just wait and see the answer unfold, as opposed to being impatient for an answer.. these are some thoughts i have that probably reflect more about me then horary, but i do wonder about this kind of stuff.

i read anthony louis's site the other day. he helped someone find a lock that was temporarily missing. i thought his answer was brilliant, but i also thought about how astrology is much more then answering questions about where did i misplace my lock.. i guess i am being judgemental, but i see a lot of silly questions when i read the horary threads and think on some level it reduces the ability of others to take astrology all that seriously.. now, having said that, i thought the thread that initiated this thread was fairly serious and i wondered if the answer couldn't be gotten thru natal astrology as opposed to horary astrology? i thus wonder about the role of horary and i might be throwing myself into the fire by saying all this, but so be it.. i think a lot of questions in horary are superficial and make astrology appear superficial.. the questions that aren't are more interesting to me, and of course the nature of the question in the other thread falls into this category..

getting a yes or no answer to something is also another interesting place to be in.. in life a lot of the time we don't get definitive answers, in spite of how it would be great if we did! i wonder about just how serious horary astrology or the astrologer take themselves if they think they can get the right answer to important life changing types of questions? as for the frivolous questions, i wonder about how it gives astrology the impression of being some type of fortune telling like what you would get from a chinese fortune cookie.. just some random and potentially volatile thoughts for a wednesday night from yours truly.. glad to see folks talking about this, so thanks again for starting a thread on it.
Last edited by james_m on Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

17 by Paul
Nixx wrote: Knowing you as I do you might think this is a trick question, but it isn't.
But is it a relevant one Nixx? I'm unlikely to run into such a question so we can find ethical issues much closer to home I'm sure. No doubt the only purpose of this question is to shock and cause disgust.

I wasn't aware that cannibalism is legal in Borneo, but it's certainly not legal where I live and owing to what I perceive to be a depraved question I would politely decline to answer the question.

18 by Paul
Nixx wrote: Should an astrologer only deal with 'death' if they have undergone bereavement training or 'suicide' if they are a trained psychotherapist ? Is the astrological nous very much secondary to the psychological one ?

By and large astrologers are dealing with questions of human behaviour or mental states. So on what basis can they ethically operate without considerable, and ideally assessed, exposure to material which provides information about these ?
Yes, it's an interesting and sometimes difficult question. Shoudl one only comment on the psychology of an individual if they have received the relevant psychological training? Perhaps. But please tell me what course one should take to qualify them for forecasting death, or someone's lost keys? You mention bereavement counselling, but that assumes that the astrologer is operating as a bereavement counsellor, what if they are not?

19 by Nixx
Kirk wrote:
So it seems to me a certain type or quality of person has an inbuilt ability to understand human nature without needing to study it formally.
YES! But we are taught to not trust that, to treat it as insufficient. We truly do have an innate sense to help us find the right people to ask for their help.
Do we ?

Is this similar to a cat knowing which of the other cats is about to chase him round the garden and which one wants to snuggle up next to him?

What I see on astrology forums frequently, and what happened here on the ''Suicide is possible'' thread is a character appearing who I would have though most sensible or intelligent people would keep their distance from. But not every one did, so if your idea is correct what is happening here ? Presumably this ''innate sense'' has been damaged or isn't working.

20 by Nixx
Paul wrote:
Nixx wrote:
But is it a relevant one Nixx? I'm unlikely to run into such a question so we can find ethical issues much closer to home I'm sure. No doubt the only purpose of this question is to shock and cause disgust.

I wasn't aware that cannibalism is legal in Borneo, but it's certainly not legal where I live and owing to what I perceive to be a depraved question I would politely decline to answer the question.
It's a pretty standard technique in this context; the aim is to get people to think about where their ethics come from. Social norms, taboos, humans rights issues, etc.

If there is a Horary ethics course somewhere? Then the facilitator could adopt the question as follows. Is it acceptable for the Chief Diviner in a village in Borneo to answer this question, i.e. in a setting where ''depravity'' may not come into it?



But please tell me what course one should take to qualify them for forecasting death, or someone's lost keys? You mention bereavement counselling, but that assumes that the astrologer is operating as a bereavement counsellor, what if they are not?
In 2012 there wouldn?t be a course for ''death forecasting' as it is seen as deluded and/or psychopathic now and if caught doing this the astrologer might face a lengthy spell in a penal or even psychiatric institution. Back to social norms/values, how these are generated from the knowledge base we now possess and what is seen as depraved today in the UK.

Back to the Horary course's facilitator they need to make clear there are no certainties with astrology and we are discussing symbolic/mathematical models not blood tests or MRI scans.

I don?t think it would be seen as unethical or illegal by either the man in the street or moral philosophers to advise someone the keys might be in the Jacket pocket. Again it is a simple case of making clear the Horoscope is not a CCTV system, just a construct to think about the solution.

With bereavment I think this hinges on how you advertise your service. Some say they are Astrological Counsellors, or used to ? So ideally they would have some counselling training and again make it clear how they operate and on what basis. But in a Horary context Bereavement /Loss may come up, so to deal with the matter sensitively even a rudimentary understanding of the psychological stages/process one goes through would be very useful.
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