Nixx wrote: People don't remember what happened to them age 0-3.

Why do you say this Nixx? I remember several things that happened during that time, including my being potty trained, my nappy being changed, starting playschool at 3, learning to read at 3 etc.

The topic is multiple planets in a house. Kirk had the decency to note he was going off topic. Side trips are inevitable, but they should not become the major focus of the thread..

?Ted never accepted Johnny as a father figure, preferring his beloved grandfather. Grandfather Cowell was a man with a violent temper, a man who brooked no dissent. His wife was repeatedly taken to hospitals for shock treatment for depression. Her fears grew until she refused to leave the house, a victim of agoraphobia??.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Bundy,_Ted

Precisely the opposite of what I've read. I'm also very suspicious of glittering generalities like "violent temper," and
"a man who brooked no dissent," which could apply to millions of people none of whom are violent. Astro databank is not what I would consider a primary source on anything except birth times. Taking the family neuroses and concluding "abuse" is a non sequitur unless the definition of abuse is so watered down as to include anything unpleasant or imperfect. The family had problems, so does every other family. Please back on topic. If anyone thinks this topic is worth pursuing, fine, please relate it to the chart.

Anyone who wishes to discuss Bundy's ancestry or family, please do so within the context of the chart.

I like Morin's remarks on the 4th house a lot. Passion=suffering, sounds about right.

I hadn't looked at The Cabal in years. I retyped it and it is posted it on Skyscript, but because I'm a lousy typist and I was under some pressure to get it done more quickly than I was doing. I stopped using Wharton"s translation verbatim, and started using modern words or endings in order to type it faster, and the result isn't what I wanted. Apologies to George Wharton. I've been meaning to get back to that to edit it for years.

When I read it yesterday, my instinct was to define "passion" as we would normally define it in contemporary English: intense emotion, as in "Sports are his passion." That didn't seem to fit the 4th house at all, in my opinion, so I went to the Online Etymology Dictionary and found that the earliest Latin definition was "suffering." But the more modern definition first showed up in the 14th century. Morin of course, wrote in the 17th century. Word usage does change slowly, however.

I'm not leading a charge trying to find pity for Ted Bundy. He was a pitiless man. But "suffering" is certainly not out of the question. The modern tendency might be to see this 4th house emphasis in a serial killers' chart as difficulties within the family, but fine, what are they and how is this shown in the chart and can this be seen in some way using traditional methods, Morin's or those of some other traditional authority?

Investigators dismissed Bundy's statements about pornography as hokum. He was a psychopath,which means he was a liar and a fabricator, adjusting his stories to suit his audience.

The pornography thing is interesting because of the outcry it produced from the "pornography is harmless" crowd. It reminded me of the Wizard of Oz, "Pay no attention the man behind the curtain."

That Ted Bundy was manipulative and a pathological liar is not disputed. But now and again even pathological liars tell the truth. The problem is determining what is and isn't true. My recollection of the statement is that he admitted the pornography usage, and let the interviewers draw their own conclusions. I don't remember his "blaming" that for his actions, but I haven't looked it up. He may have. Regardless, it is interesting that this remark took on political significance while the potential psychological significance was dismissed. I tend to agree that it's hokum, and if it is related to his activities, it is as a symptom, not a cause.

Fourth house/tenth house: Bundy sometimes impersonated authority figures to lure women to their literal gravesites.

Very nice.

As to the chart: In his AG Morin preferred Regiomantus houses. For those wanting to follow him herein too, there is a small, but as to the Sun, the Moon (and Uranus) important, difference:
Placidus as given: 5th 22?59 Sagittarius; 11th 22?59 Gemini; 12th 26?38 Cancer

Regiomontanus: 5th 26?35 Sagittarius; 11th 26?35 Gemini; 12th 00?01 (!) Leo

Thus Regiomontanus has the Moon clearly in the 4th, the 12th is just ruled by the Sun (and Uranus would be still in the 10th).

Surely interesting not for Morin purists only.

Johannes

Additional: I don't know whether Morin changed the calculation for the Part of Fortune at night. If not, POF should be at

10?27 Virgo = 1st house.

Surely interesting not for Morin purists only

The house business is and always will be a problem. Morin even had his own house system that he pronounced valid despite it not producing an accurate MC or ASC, but he never used it at least in publication. Also, FYI, Morin had his own version of the five-degree rule. He dismissed the five degree rule on the grounds that philosophically, in his mind, houses began at the cusps, not five-degrees before. But he conceded that planets near the cusp might have influence in the following house based on their orbs. So if a planet has a 5 degree orb (modern sense) or moiety (older sense) and was 3 degrees from the 5th cusp, it would influence the 5th house AND the 4th house.

The problem with this is that Morin used huge orbs for most of the planets in any chart would influence both houses. The orb idea makes sense. It is the huge orbs that make this a problem. For example Morin argued that the Moon had an orb of 24 degrees and therefore a moiety of 12 degrees. So no matter what, the Moon would influence Bundy's 5th house. But he would argue that it was in the 4th, even if it were 1 minute of arc from the cusp. The five-degree rule says the house begins five degrees before the cusp (unless there is a sign change.) But other problems can occur as a result. For example, and this is just a rounded example for explanation purposes, let's say Bundy's planets are in the same position as his natal chart, but that the 5th house begins at 20 Sagittarius. Using Morin's rules, The Sun would influence the 5th house as it is within its 18 degree moiety to the cusp, but Mars would not as it is outside is 6.5 degree moiety. I have a problem with that.

We don't have to blindly follow Morin on this thread. I only used him as an example. We do need to keep it traditional, though.

Nixx wrote:Blimey I am a real maverick in academic psychology, not many look at Horoscopes, maybe less uninformed stereotyping Kirk!

I have never seen an astrological delineation from you. Care to give one in Bundy's case? Kirk is actually intelligent and attacking him doesn't do any favor to you; especially when I see that he didn't give you any reason to do what you did...
It actually doesn't matter whether you are a "real maverick academy psychology" or not, if you let your emotions override reason and especially if you don't contribute astrologically in this forum, which is a place for traditional astrologers.
Also, I may say some (more) things about you, based on what you have said, but I'll mind my own business here, trying my skills on Bundy's chart.

So back on topic, I noticed there are two extremely afflicted planets, Saturn and Venus. Also Mercury, Jupiter, the Sun and the Moon, but on different levels.

The afflictions of Saturn and Venus: both are peregrine, in detriment and retrograde. Saturn rejoices in 12th, Venus is angular, which actually worsen the afflictions. Venus is related to all women, including his mother (as ruler of 10th). Also, 4th is the grave, the underground... You can do a connection here.
Saturn is the nocturnal significator of the father and - along with Scorpio hosting 4th - his afflictions strongly state a deceitful father figure. Note the ruler of 4th in trine with Saturn.

Okay, now there is something interesting about Jupiter. He rules 5th, 8th and 12th by exaltation (also, the lack of aspect between Moon and Cancer strengthens Jupiter's rulership). Also, he is afflicted by his peregrine state and his position in a malefic Sign.

5th is sex, 8th is death and 12th is the House of Evil Spirit, according to the old astrologers.
Jupiter also rules the Sun and the Moon, the conditional Lights in any nativity. Given the nocturnal nature of the chart, Moon is prominent here.

Also, someone (I think Kirk) pointed Jupiter as Almuten Figuris, thus giving him more weight. AF is the soul's purpose in life. The Asc ruler can be seen as the soul itself. There - Jupiter in Scorpio and 4th and Sun in Sagittarius, in the same place with South Node and Mars (both afflicts him). I suppose that afflicted Jupiter in a fixed Sign and as dispositor of soul (along with the chart being nocturnal) didn't let Ted Bundy much free will to operate in this world.

Both the Sun and the Moon are afflicted by South Node and Mars. The Sun is peregrine, the Moon is only in decan. Interesting, the Asc is in Martian term. The Sun is ruler of Asc. I see both Sun and Mars in 5th by Whole Signs, as I can say he was looking a bit childish (Sagittarius) in other people's eyes (those who had direct contact with him), which may lead them to believe him innocent.

I read a story about a woman who fell in love with Bundy, believed strongly his plea of "not guilty" and he fathered a child with that woman; I think that woman was his lawyer, but I'm not sure. Here you see the Moon, the woman, with both Sun and Mars. When she found out he admitted all the accusations, she disappeared and changed her name and her home, even moved to another city, I think.
Also, note the Moon being in 5th - a child with her.

Mars, when afflicted, is always blood thirsty, especially when in an enough prominent placement and in a human Sign. Sagittarius has two halves: the first is human, the second is beastly. Mars is in the human half... The 5th House is also powerful enough to propel the native to do something bad.

So there works the generosity (mutual reception without aspect) between Jupiter and Mars...

Paul wrote:
Why do you say this Nixx? I remember several things that happened during that time, including my being potty trained, my nappy being changed, starting playschool at 3, learning to read at 3 etc.

Are you familiar with this kind of material:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroanato ... evelopment

Of interest re Bundy is if he had received a profound lack of care in this period, part of which may have been a fear of his grandad , then the memory is encoded / retained in the amalgyda quicker. Because this is more ''emotionally charged' (this is 'trauma', technically), the memory becomes harder to retrieve as doing so will create considerable anxiety.

As you are one of the minority who recall early infancy more clearly, or think you do, we can suggest you were not beaten senseless every night or starved for days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_trauma

''Some theories suggest childhood trauma can lead to violent behaviour, possibly as extreme as serial murder. For example, Hickey's Trauma-Control Model suggests that "childhood trauma for serial murderers may serve as a triggering mechanism resulting in an individual's inability to cope with the stress of certain events."[4]

Without knowing what happened more exactly then we have this problem, or a Psychological Astrologer would, in deciding if this time is likely to be accurate for one thing and more critically being sure the Moon is in the 4th This is the problem when looking at charts where you do not personally know the person/life well, don't have a brain scanner to hand or a background in Psychiatry. So we end up trying to 'fit' a chart to a biography or two and these may be oblivious to a lot of Bundy's reality or psyche if you prefer.

Anyway I don't come to Skyscript to talk about Psychology, can you spin some sect, lots, speed .....onto this chart and inform us as to how this nasty 'fate' would be delineated by some of the old fellows?

Tzadde wrote:
I have never seen an astrological delineation from you. Care to give one in Bundy's case? Kirk is actually intelligent and attacking him doesn't do any favor to you; especially when I see that he didn't give you any reason to do what you did...

A correction is not an attack.



I liked your delineation as an insight into ideas we are interested in here.

It seems as though you think Bundy's chart is a bt of a bugger, ie. 6 of the 7 classical planets are not in good shape.

What do you mean by Saturn is 'hosting' the 4th?
Is this malefic sign idea common in the tradtion?, I don't know if I have encountered this before.
This idea of the 'soul' being linked to the Asc ruler is from what period or authors? and why ? Also how would you define Soul i.e is this the Kirk/Hillman conception or another ?

Nixx wrote:

Paul wrote:
Why do you say this Nixx? I remember several things that happened during that time, including my being potty trained, my nappy being changed, starting playschool at 3, learning to read at 3 etc.

Are you familiar with this kind of material:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroanatomy_of_memory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_development

Can you point out where either of these links show that the child does not remember their first 3 years of life? If anything these links seem to contradict that statement considerably.

''Some theories suggest childhood trauma can lead to violent behaviour, possibly as extreme as serial murder. For example, Hickey's Trauma-Control Model suggests that "childhood trauma for serial murderers may serve as a triggering mechanism resulting in an individual's inability to cope with the stress of certain events."[4]

Right but you seem to almost be arguing a reversed logic, that violent behaviour stems from childhood trauma. That childhood trauma can result in violent behaviour is not indicative that violent behaviour stems from childhood trauma. In other words Dogs are Animals, that doesn't mean that Animals are Dogs, some are cats.

Without knowing what happened more exactly then we have this problem, or a Psychological Astrologer would, in deciding if this time is likely to be accurate for one thing and more critically being sure the Moon is in the 4th

Right but we're not looking at it from a psychological astrologer's viewpoint. We're looking at it from a traditional viewpoint, in fact we're actually looking at multiple planets in a house via the traditional method and just using this as an example.

Nixx wrote: This idea of the 'soul' being linked to the Asc ruler is from what period or authors? and why ? Also how would you define Soul i.e is this the Kirk/Hillman conception or another ?

I don't know if this is the best thread to start learning traditional astrology though as that's not its purpose.

Paul,
1/Try this one, I should have put 'most' people, and ignored the context somewhat:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood_ ... ood_memory
??According to a study by Riggins et al.(2009), observations lend support to age-related increases in contextual memories. This is linked to maturation of frontal lobe structures and connectivity between the prefrontal cortex and medial temporal lobe.[6] Recollection memory for details of individual objects is related to heightened activity in the anterior medial prefrontal cortex and lateral parietal/temporal regions.[6] Recollection for details include the temporal order of events, and this is demonstrated to improve with age even between ages 3 and 4.[6]?

2/ I wasn?t saying this. Childhood trauma had been found to be a statistically significant factor in the later development of psychopaths/serial killers, and recent 'hard' research is suggesting why. That?s all.

3/- Yes, but what we need to do here is encapsulated in Robert Hand's thoughts:
??If you were to study the medieval texts without some grounding in contemporary, you?d practise astrology as it was practised centuries ago, and that is not appropriate?this is not the middle Ages??.

Imagine there was such an entity as a ?forensic astrologer employed to profile serial killers or find the killer, as it were. Once the state was convinced in say Tzadde?s horoscopy, we then need to dialogue with them which involves relating it to the ?academic ?lens in vogue at the time. Which we would need to be familiar with. The Psychiatrist would be asking the forensic astrologer about the early life nowadays as this is the current go to place and anticipating the astrologer might provide the chart that fits this paradigm. . The astrologer might say I think this chart is Bundys / the man we are looking for, not the other 4 and this is not directly related to good enough parenting but ?soul damage? or ?sexual perversion? or ??blood thirst?? ...and runs deeper than this, or the genesis of these behaviours is found in adolescencent experiences, etc. Regardless the objective is to stop him killing again.

4/ I?m interested here in :
a/ How multiple planets were delineated pre 1700.
b/ How these various schemas are applicable to Bundys chart. Tzadde?s ?soul? needs defining , not least as it was on the face of it quite central to his./her delineation, as it always does when people throw this nebulous concept into the semantics.

You and your endemic tangents, Gemini?

Nixx wrote:Tzadde?s ?soul? needs defining , not least as it was on the face of it quite central to his./her delineation, as it always does when people throw this nebulous concept into the semantics.

Soul doesn't have a quite clear-cut definition. I have the following approach: if it isn't body (Asc), mind (Mercury) or emotion (Moon), then it is soul (ruler of Asc along with Sun). You are not the body, neither the mind nor the emotional states. Something must deal with them all; this must be the soul.

I guess you know how death is depicted in many cultures: the soul leaving the body. This is my general understanding of the soul.