James

so, it now has to do with it being in the first, but not in the same sign as the ascendant? i am curious as to what the central thrust of the ancient wisdom/logic on this is.. thanks..

The logic seems to be this. A planet close to the cusp is normally considered stronger anyway but if it is not in the same sign but the next one it is succeedent and does not aspect the angle and is weaker. I am looking at Ben Dykes intro to his Works of Sahl and Masha'Allah. I will quote if if you like but he appears to be a logical kind of person.

BTW - no semi-sextiles allowed in trad.

I am sure Jean-Baptiste Morin says something on this too. He was not ancient but applied logic to the tradition.

As to the thought police you may be sailing close to the wind but room 101 has not been booked for you just yet!

Matthew

. . .

i am curious as to what the central thrust of the ancient wisdom/logic on this is.. thanks..

Simplicity in itself first off you need to read what I wrote correctly rather than read into it. Secondly you have to understand that you're the one making a simple statement into an absolute. I'm not

Lord 10 in the first, but not in the same sign as the ASC and in fall indicates whatever honors or recognition he achieves, it will be short lived.

The planet has two weaknesses that a planet otherwise would not have if placed in the first house. 1) It is in fall. That's a weakness that does not need to be explained. 2) It's not in the same sign as the ASC, that is also a weakness as the dispositor of the ASC is not the dispositor of the planet in question. If we used whole signs or if it were closer to the 2nd cusp it wouldn't be in the first house. How does a weak planet manifest? Uhhh weakly. So if Lord 10 in the first is INDICATION that honors come to the native, then a weak lord 10 in the 1st would manifest weakly. It's really not difficult.

if you are going to go with a modern technique i would go with jupiter/pluto midpoint = midheaven, but i figured the thought police might get me if i mentioned that on the trad and ancient technique forum..

It is clear that you do not or cannot understand the purpose of this forum, which is clearly stated elsewhere, and you choose to be snarky instead of all out disruptive. That ends now. If I have to I'll delete every post you put up and lock every thread you start whether you are on topic or not. You don't like the way the Forum is run, well that's too bad. There is a forum for things like midpoints. Use it.

Using Valens eminence indicators, there's not much happening in this chart. But he already is quite eminent so how sure can we be of the time?

See here for an example: http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-file ... egore.html

On his website in a section about the Delphic Oracle astrology program, Curtis Manwaring summarises it as follows:

"The trigon lords were the main "baseline" indicator of eminence in hellenistic astrology. By eminence, we mean how influential or important an individual will be in this world (not necessarily how famous).

[...]

Vettius Valens gave the trigon lords as being the primary consideration and the 4 lots (Fortune, Spirit, Exaltation and Basis) a secondary consideration, saying that "they appended these as confirming the testimony of the trigon lords, but not refuting them".

Valens gave other lot related aphorisms related to eminence. Of particular interest is the 10th sign from the lot of fortune for it represents the "height of fortune". He said that when the other lots hand over (the domicile lord of the lot being in said condition) to the 10th from fortune or in pivots of these, that it raises the esteem of the native (I am paraphrasing here). He also said that when the lords of thes lots hand over to each other, that it also adds to eminence."

http://www.astrology-x-files.com/help-do5/do3210.html

Now if Boris had his lot of Exaltation in Cancer (rather than early Leo), the that would have the ruler handing over to the 10th from Fortune which would be a big boost for eminence (although the "baseline" is weak with two of the three trigon lords declining (Whole Sign) and not much better considering the pivots relative to Fortune.)

Stellarium wrote:Now if Boris had his lot of Exaltation in Cancer (rather than early Leo), the that would have the ruler handing over to the 10th from Fortune which would be a big boost for eminence (although the "baseline" is weak with two of the three trigon lords declining (Whole Sign) and not much better considering the pivots relative to Fortune.)

If he had Lot of Exaltation in Cancer, the Lady of the Lot would be in 6th from the Lot of Spirit, meaning the native would destroy his own social rising. With the Exaltation in Leo, we see that Sun is in the same place with the Spirit, so this is better, because the native himself can choose well, especially with the Lord of the Spirit in the same place.

Another way to look at it... With the Spirit in Gemini, we can see that Pisces is the 10th place, resided by Saturn, Lord of Fortune and Basis, in his decan. The Moon rules MC (which is conjunct Sirius) and applies to Saturn. The dismayed (Scorpio) voters (Moon) will vote him, because he seems a better option than other candidates.

So here we've got another two testimonies for his rise.

The birth time of the above chart comes from a letter sent by his father just after the birth so should be reasonably accurate.

Hello Mathew,

Before I get 'stuck in' so to speak I like to verify my data as much as possible. Could you provide the source for that information regarding his Father please?

Thanks

Mark

Dear Mark,
The Andrew Gimson biography was mentioned.if you look it up on Amazon and click "look inside" you can read the first few pages. Doubtless the same father registered the birth with the Manhattan authorities and the British consulate so I suspect the time was the same there.

Regards

Matthew

Thanks Mathew,

Apologies. I missed your earlier reference to this.

Mark

I attributed carter's weakness as sun in 12th ... and he did drink to the surprise of nixon

Just bringing these Threads back to life.

H