I understand the bad reputation of Mercury retrograde, but I personally think it is overplayed. All kinds of contracts must get completed, surgeries successfully performed, planes landing on time, and so on during its supposed baleful influence, because Mercury goes retrograde so frequently. The press would obviously be reporting a complete stand-still of everyday business practices and communications if this retrograde problem always applied.

I can't recall where I read this, but one (modern) astrologer suggested that Mercury retrograde natives may actually do better when transiting Mercury goes retrograde. During those times, we're more attuned to its movements, supposedly.

I note that Mitt Romney has Mercury retrograde, while Obama's Mercury is direct.

margherita, you raise a good point about whether the Mercury retrograde problem applies to other countries' elections. But maybe it does explain why non-Italians are sometimes prone to see Italian politics as less orderly than governments in the Anglo countries?

waybread wrote: margherita, you raise a good point about whether the Mercury retrograde problem applies to other countries' elections. But maybe it does explain why non-Italians are sometimes prone to see Italian politics as less orderly than governments in the Anglo countries?

Because they are so

But even in Italy there is a difference between a landslide victory like Berlusconi's ones in 2001 and especially in 2008 and winning for 24,000 votes out of 38,000,000 voting people like Prodi in 2006.

We should only wait and see what the retrograde Mercury will bring to Americans, if the rule works for them this time too...

margherita

Good evening,

May i suggest that it might be worthwhile and appropriate in the context of the US elections next month to go a bit deeper into the other astrological data that condition 'Mercury retrograde'?

Examples might be:

1. How is Mercury configured in the vernal and autumn tropical solar ingresses of 2012, set to Washington DC, USA, including all Mediaeval honours and debilities, essential and accidental?
2. How is Mercury configured in the foundation chart of the USofA, perhaps using Dr H's (Regulus Astrology) rectified time or a better one?
3. Aside from becoming retrograde, how will Mercury be configured on election day at 12h00 local time in Washington DC or at a time deemed more appropriate?
As far as i can see (errors and omissions excepted), when He goes retrograde at 23h04 UT on 6 November 2012 (Washington DC) He will be in sect but not in hayizz, debilitated, opposed to the ascendant, conjunct the malefic fixed stars Akrab and Dschubba, of southern ecliptical latitude, slow, ruled by Jupiter (also retrograde) and in mutual reception with Him by rulership and triplicity, in His triplicity with co-rulers Sun and Saturn, in Jupiter's Egyptian bound and in His own (MER) face. He 'faces Helios' (see parallel thread).

His aspects by signs will be conjunct Mars, opposition Jupiter, trine waning (thus malefic), debilitated Moon, sextile Venus. He will be averse to Saturn and Sun, two of His triplicity rulers.

It seems to me perhaps presumptuous to judge 'Mercury goes retrograde' without having considered such data. Relatively little astrological attention has apparently been focussed on the outcomes of the elections to the US Congress that will substantially determine the possible effectiveness of the next government of the USofA.

Best regards,

lihin

pankajdubey wrote:
The elction date for Obama falls in his Libra-Aquarius and Obama's inauguration falls in Libra-Aquarius-Virgo and the L4 jump of Leo to Pisces happens in Feb 2013.
So, Obama wins.

Would you care to explain your logic? It does not appear this cut and dried to me.

zoidsoft wrote:

pankajdubey wrote:
The elction date for Obama falls in his Libra-Aquarius and Obama's inauguration falls in Libra-Aquarius-Virgo and the L4 jump of Leo to Pisces happens in Feb 2013.
So, Obama wins.

Would you care to explain your logic? It does not appear this cut and dried to me.

Well!
It goes like this-

1.The subject (Kerry) and the method (Zodiacal releasing) respond to each other.
2.The changes in Kerry's life based on ZR technique are quite marked.
3.Kerry, is not in one of those detrimental phases till until after the Presidential election.
4.Till that time Kerry's situation will improve (Secretary of State).
5.For that to happen, Obama will have to win.
6.Once Obama wins, Kerry's own luck takes over and the Leo to Pisces jump takes its effect.
7.By that time, Obama is the President for next 4 years.

Good morning,

Perhaps Mr Kerry, upon the possible loss of elections by Mr Obama, might obtain an excellent position in the private economy earning several times his current income.

It would seem that all of Mr Obama's ministers' charts would have to be evaluated in order to attempt a conclusion like Mr Pankajdubey's. Even then, the conclusion might be erroneous due to the frequency of advantageous transfers of key personnel from the public to the private sector and vice versa in the USofA.

In my humble opinion, based only on astrology Mercury is considerably more likely than not to function differently in Italy than in the USofA.

Best regards,

lihin

lihin wrote:Good morning,

Perhaps Mr Kerry, upon the possible loss of elections by Mr Obama, might obtain an excellent position in the private economy earning several times his current income.

It would seem that all of Mr Obama's ministers' charts would have to be evaluated in order to attempt a conclusion like Mr Pankajdubey's. Even then, the conclusion might be erroneous due to the frequency of advantageous transfers of key personnel from the public to the private sector and vice versa in the USofA.

In my humble opinion, based only on astrology Mercury is considerably more likely than not to function differently in Italy than in the USofA.

Best regards,

lihin

Thanks.
And the Astrology is ??

Lihin wrote:

May I suggest that it might be worthwhile and appropriate in the context of the US elections next month to go a bit deeper into the other astrological data that condition 'Mercury retrograde'?

Fair point. I have personally been researching Mercury in American election charts back to 1856 (the first election the Republican party contested). I will post up my results later.

Examples might be:

1. How is Mercury configured in the vernal and autumn tropical solar ingresses of 2012, set to Washington DC, USA, including all Mediaeval honours and debilities, essential and accidental?

I plan to post up both charts too. Although you could post them yourself and delineate them if they really interest you? Do you know how to post charts? It makes threads more interesting rather than just paragraphas of text.

2. How is Mercury configured in the foundation chart of the USofA, perhaps using Dr H's (Regulus Astrology) rectified time or a better one?

Well thats the Holy Grail of American mundane astrology isn't it? We had an epic thread on Skyscript on that exact topic some years back. However, it just went to prove the myriad of options for a 'foundational chart'. There is no consensus. I personally agree with Benjamin Dykes that from a legal point of view the USA began in 1789 not 1776. The various 4th of July charts tell us about American national identity. However, the institutions of the modern USA : The Presidency, House of Representatives, Senate, Supreme Court and the constitution all date from 1789. I tend to use 2 charts for American government. The USA Constitution chart (from the date the constitution took legal effect-00:00 hours 4th March 1789) and the |Presidential chart, from the date and time of the inauguration of the first President George Washington on April 30th 1789. However, I do find the Sibly chart useful too.

I dont really, want to open the thread up to full a debate on which chart is the 'correct one'. It would distract from the topic of this thread too much. Your welcome to open a thread on this elsewhere if you like. Personally, I have found it a fruitless discussion. Much better to just to post your own analysis and research with a chart you use and trust.

I plan to post up the version of the Presidential chart I use. Its interesting not just to time events but also to see if prospective candidates nativities tie into it. I should state I think subsequent research has shown the time of 12:45pm quoted by Nicholas Campion in Book of World Horoscopes is far too early. I work with a rectified time of 1.20pm. This has Virgo rising and a Gemini MC. This in part goes to to explain the particular sensitivity of the USA to Mercury placements in Presidential elections.

3. Aside from becoming retrograde, how will Mercury be configured on election day at 12h00 local time in Washington DC or at a time deemed more appropriate?

Thanks for your systematic listing. What do you think it actually means for the candidates though?

Mark

Good afternoon,

Meanwhile i have added three charts above and more information.

Frankly, may one express reservations about publishing mundane delineations on such topics? Humans generally identify intensely with their countries and their political parties, harbour strong patriotic feelings, are subject to more or less indoctrinating inland mass media, etc. "My country right or wrong" is an example of what arises. Foreigners tend to have images of other countries - in this particular case of the USofA - which seldom match those of the citizens wearing rose-coloured eye-glasses.

One may recall that leading British astrologers predicted peace in 1939 although the ingress charts permitted other conclusions.

If one applies astrological knowledge, particularly of the planet Hermes - who symbolises both scribes and thieves -, to the charts' data, stark delineations emerge suggesting that - even and specially in the USA - politics are very far from being as clean and transparent as one would like or pretend. One example amongst many of astrological data leading to such delineations is the two malefic fixed stars Hermes in conjoined to on 6 November. Detailed descriptions would probably provoke useless polemics. Discretion is less imprudent.

In my humble opinion Mark has mentioned the valid difference between events underpinning a country's myths and sense of common identity, and those establishing its structures. The former more indicate the dream, the latter the reality. Here is a tropical chart of the entry of the Constitution of the USofA into effect on 4 March 1789 set to New York, NY.
Here are a table of honours and a list of the calculations, essential and accidental, according to W. Lilly's point system, and a list of partile conjunctions with bright fixed stars:
Dignity Calculations (scheme William Lilly)
1789-03-04, 0h00 LMT, New York, NY, USA

Mercury in mutual reception to Mars by triplicity
Mercury +3
Mars +3

Saturn is peregrine -5
Saturn is in house 5 +3
Saturn is direct +4
Saturn is swift +2
Saturn is oriental +2
Saturn is combust -5

Jupiter is exalted ruler of its sign +4
Jupiter is in house 9 +2
Jupiter is retrograde -5
Jupiter is slow -2
Jupiter is occidental -2
Jupiter is free of suns beams +5

Mars is peregrine -5
Mars is in house 4 +4
Mars is direct +4
Mars is swift +2
Mars is oriental +2
Mars is under suns beams -4

Sun is peregrine -5
Sun is in house 5 +3
Sun is swift +2

Venus is peregrine -5
Venus is in house 4 +4
Venus is direct +4
Venus is swift +2
Venus is oriental -2
Venus is free of suns beams +5

Mercury is peregrine -5
Mercury is in its detriment -5
Mercury is in its fall -4
Mercury is in house 5 +3
Mercury is retrograde -5
Mercury is slow -2
Mercury is occidental +2
Mercury is under suns beams -4

Moon is peregrine -5
Moon is in house 8 -2
Moon is free of suns beams +5
Moon is waxing +2

Partile Conjunctions with Bright Fixed Stars

Moon conjunct Hyades 0 15'
Venus conjunct Deneb Algedi 0 13'
Venus conjunct Sadalsuud 0 22'
Saturn conjunct Achernar 0 34'
Ascendant conjunct Rigel Kentaurus 0 20'

Here are two relevant tropical equinoctial ingresses:
Best regards,

lihin

Lihin wrote:

Frankly, may one express reservations about publishing mundane delineations on such topics? Humans generally identify intensely with their countries and their political parties, harbour strong patriotic feelings, are subject to more or less indoctrinating inland mass media, etc. "My country right or wrong" is an example of what arises. Foreigners tend to have images of other countries - in this particular case of the USofA - which seldom match those of the citizens wearing rose-coloured eye-glasses.

One may recall that leading British astrologers predicted peace in 1939 although the ingress charts permitted other conclusions.

I think you make a very valid point here. Arguably, no branch of astrology is as liable to 'contamination' through personal prejudice than this one. I have explained here on the forum before how I think my personal political preferences stopped me seeing the likeliest outcome of the 2010 UK British general election. I knew from looking at the ingress and polling charts that a coalition was highly likely. However, my personal preferences stopped me seeing it was more likely to to feature the right of centre Conservatives than the left of centre Labour party. This despite the fact Mercury ( Lord 10) was combust in the Aries ingress chart!

I dont think I am in any way unique here. I think even some well known astrological 'noteables' out there are just as much at risk of such beliefs colouring their delineations. Maybe , it would help if we all owned up before offering up an analysis where our personal political loyalties lay. That is probably more the case when the analysis concerns our own country. At the very least I think we all need to take an honest appraisal of our political stance before posting on such issues.

Perhaps we shouldn't feel too guilty. Even the great William Lilly clearly succumbed to this tendency in some of his political horaries.

In my humble opinion Mark has mentioned the valid difference between events underpinning a country's myths and sense of common identity, and those establishing its structures. The former more indicate the dream, the latter the reality. Here is a tropical chart of the entry of the Constitution of the USofA into effect on 4 March 1789.

Glad someone agrees. I always despair when I see astrologers describe one of the various 4th of July charts as 'The USA chart'. As if the matter is as simple as all that. I guess some people like to see life in black and white terms. I prefer more subtle nuances and shades of grey.

Mark

PS: Thanks for posting up the charts. Regarding the US Constitution charts and Presidency: The original seat of US government when the new constitution took effect in 1789 was New York city. George Washington was sworn in as President in New York in 1789 and the House of Representatives and Senate first met there too. The new capitol of Washington was not constructed until the late 1790's and Congress did not meet there until 1800. I dont personally relocate such charts and still locate them for New York City.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington,_D.C.

hi lihin and mark,

lihin, what is the basis for the march 4 1789 chart?

mark, i look forward to you articulating the rationale for a rectified time of 120pm for the april 30 1789 presidents chart.

as for bias, i don't think anyone escapes this, in spite of the protests of astrologers at the thought.. better off to admit to a degree of subjectivity right off the top, then to think one is 100% objective and that it is all based on only the astrology..

James_M wrote:

lihin, what is the basis for the march 4 1789 chart?

It was my suggestion James. I have been promoting this chart on Skyscript for years. See this previous thread where I discuss this chart in some detail.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6121

Legally 00:00 hours on March 4th 1789 is when the USA constitution came into effect. This is not when it was signed or ratified by the states but when it came into legal operation. Oddly, Rodden Astrodatabank neglect this chart and only lists the rectified chart for the date of signing in 1788. The 1789 chart doesn't require rectification. Hence it avoids the problem with so many charts. I also believe that charts based on when constitutions take effect are generally the most reliable kind of chart. They are not based on the subjective 'birth of a nation' notion but the political reality of when a new governmental structure began. I should say I am not the first to strongly advocate this chart. Its used by a few American mundane astrologers. Dane Rudhyar proposed this chart decades ago.

mark, i look forward to you articulating the rationale for a rectified time of 120pm for the april 30 1789 presidents chart.

I will. It is partly based on research that the New York newspaper source Campion relied upon was wrong. There are several independent sources dating the time to 1.00pm at the very earliest. Looking at the charts of numerous Presidents I am convinced the Presidential chart has a Virgo ASC and Gemini MC.

As for bias, I don't think anyone escapes this, despite the protests of astrologers at the thought.. better off to admit to a degree of subjectivity right off the top, then to think one is 100% objective and that it is all based on only the astrology.

Indeed!

Mark