I would appreciate a bit of help in resolving some confusion I still have on this topic. In particular, around the word 'Samhita' for a text. I have seen its translated from Sanskrit as 'collection of knowledge' However, this would surely mean texts of other branches of astrology containing such lists in horary or elections could be a Samhita would it not?

On the other hand many Indian astrological sources describe Samhitas as a generic term for treatises on mundane, portents, omens, meteorology, etc.

Moreover, in general terms the word Samhita is used for a collection of sacred devotional hymns in Sanskrit constituting one of the four Vedas.

I know Wikipedia is hardly a definitive source but on this link of Jyotosha texts I see the following list of Samhitas apparently dealing with mundane topics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyoti%E1%B9%A3a_resources

Brahmarshi Samita
Brihaspati Samhita
Brihat Samhita
Parasara Samhita
Garga Samhita
Rishiputra Samhita
Guru Samhita
Kashyap Samhita
Lomasha Samhita
M?nav Samhita
N?garjun Samhita
Narad Samhita
Shakalya Samhita
Sam?s Samhita
Samhita Pradeep
Samhita Sidhhanta
Satya Samhita
Sur Samhita
Vaikh?n Samhita
Vasist Samhita

Questions:

1 Are these really all astrological texts covering mundane issues?
2 Are they all still extant or only texts mentioned in later sources e.g. Brihat Samhita?

In the Brihat Samhita some of these texts are mentioned as older sources. In particular
1) Vasishta Samhita
2) Garga Samhita
3) Rishiputra Samhita etc
and numerous ancient sages and scholars such as -
1) Garga
2) Asita
3) Devala
4) Devasena etc

I understand Bhattolpla?s commentary to Brihat Samhita written in10th century AD also cites other Samhitas. Unfortunately, I dont have access to that at present.

Question: Are the sources frequently listing ancient or in some cases legendary Samhitas that are now lost in time?

Then I have a query about the Adbhuta Sagara (A.S.) of Ballala Sena (10?11th century AD). Ballala Sena, Adbhuta Sagara, Sanskrit text (ed. Muralidhar Sharma), Prabhakari & Co. Benares, 1905.

This text apparently deals extensively with meteorological phenomena, earthquakes, comets, eclipses etc. So why is this not counted as a Samhita?

For anyone interested I also found this link to details on what the source claims is a recovered Samhita previously considered lost known as the Viswamitra Samhita

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/17588172/1 ... amitra.pdf

Thanks

Mark

Mark wrote:I would appreciate a bit of help in sorting some confusion I still have on this topic. In particular, around the word 'Samhita' for a text. I have seen its translated from Sanskrit as 'collection of knowledge' However, this would surely mean texts of other branches of astrology containing such lists in horary or elections could be a Samhita would it not?

Yes, sa?hit? is a broad term. In certain contexts it has more narrow, technical meanings; but in general it means, as Monier-Williams says, 'any methodically arranged collection of texts or verses (e.g. the R?m?ya?a, the various law-books, the medical works of Caraka and ??r?gadhara, the complete system of natural astrology &c [...])'.

I can't say for certain about the texts listed on Wikipedia, but I doubt they are all on natural astrology.

Question: Are the sources frequently listing ancient or in some cases legendary Samhitas that are now lost in time?

This isn't a field that I have engaged much with, but generally speaking, Sanskrit authors and (particularly) commentators frequently cite or quote other texts; and many Sanskrit works have been lost over time. As Indian tradition favoured highly perishable manuscript materials (like palm leaves or birch bark), texts had to be copied fairly often if they were not to decay in the subtropical climate or be eaten by insects and so on.

Then I have a query about the Adbhuta Sagara (A.S.) of Ballala Sena (10?11th century AD). Ballala Sena, Adbhuta Sagara, Sanskrit text (ed. Muralidhar Sharma), Prabhakari & Co. Benares, 1905.

This text apparently deals extensively with meteorological phenomena, earthquakes, comets, eclipses etc. So why is this not counted as a Samhita?

I suppose it could; it just doesn't have sa?hit? in the title. Adbhutas?gara means 'The Ocean of Wonders'.

I am not sure how many of these samhitas still exist. I have never seen any of them.

The most famous of the bunch was the Garga Samhita. It was alleged to contain all the astronomical and astrological knowledge of India before the Hellenistic infusion. This is such a broad claim that I suspect it should be regarded with a bit of skepticism.

Pingree located three fragmentary manuscripts, but pronounced them to be in such bad condition that he could not reconstruct a text. He did translate a chapter or two. Like the later Brhat Parasara Hora, it is written in question-and-answer form, with Garga playing the role of guru to one of his disciples. I have been looking through my collection of his articles but cannot seem to find it; I might have put it in storage. In any case, a bit of Internet research ought to bring it up. It is probably on JSTOR by now.

Thanks Martin and Kenneth,

Its reassuring I dont have a vast library of Indian mundane books to research. On the other hand its very sad that so much has been lost in the Indian astrological tradition. Not just in this area but in all branches of astrology.

Martin Gansten wrote:

Adbhutas?gara means 'The Ocean of Wonders'.

Wow! What a beautiful title for a work. Reading it now would only be an anti-climax.

Mark

I have been digging around myself and found another important Samhita text dealing with nimitta.

Known as the Bhadrabahu Samhita Intriguingly, this text comes from the Jain rather than the Hindu astrological tradition of India. The Jain tradition dates this text back to the era not that long after The Buddha lived.

The text is linked to the Jain spiritual teacher Bhadrabahu thought to have lived in the 4th/3rd century BCE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acharya_Bhadrabahu

It is recorded that the Jain leader Bhadrabahu was a spiritual advisor to the King Chandragupta Maurya who was the founder of the Mauryan Empire. Eventually, Chandragupt gave up his throne in 298 BCE, when he was 42 years old, and became an ascetic under the Jain saint Bhadrabahu,

There is now a Hindi translation of the work which is combined with the original Sanskrit text:
http://www.vedicbooks.net/bhadrabahu-sa ... 14852.html

I dont read Hindi or Sanskrit myself but if I did I would definitely be studying this text. It looks fascinating.

Mark

I think it is entirely possible that Jain influence on Jyotish may be somewhat under-represented. Since Tajika is Martin's specialty, he would know more about this than I do, but Pingree notes that Tajik first appears in peninsular Gujarat, which always was and still is a sttonghold of Jainism.

I think part of the problem is that the Jain community is so comparatively tiny today people find it hard to accept they could have had a much larger influence on Indian society in the past. However, before the Islamic invasions and the rise of the more assertive theistic Hindu cults I think they had a much more important role. The same could be said of Buddhism of course. I have taken a different line from Martin before about both these groups.

While I accept early Buddhism was not that hospitable to astrology with the rise of the more liberal Mahayana Buddhist sects from around the start of the common era I think we see a much more sympathetic attitude to astrology. Texts such as the Sardulakarnavadana seem to add support to the view. We also see a favourable attitude to astrology continued amongst Tibetan Buddhists to this day.

I have raised the subject of the Jains influence on Indian astrology before on this old thread. You can pick up the discussion from page 3

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... c&start=30

Mark

Hi Mark,

Apart from the astrological portions of the Sardulakarnavadana, I am not aware of any major Buddhist astrological works created before the Buddhists crossed the Himalayas and modified the Chinese system. Even in Sardulakarnavadana, I have argued that this is a Hindu text inserted into a Buddhist work. After all, the caste system is taken for granted, and there are references to household rituals performed by purohitam, the "household priests." This would be virtually impossible if the Sardulakarnavadana were purely Buddhist.

It is interesting to note that Pingree dates the arrival of the first Hellenistic astrological text in India to c. 150 CE. At that time, the Ksatrapa kingdom, with its capital in Ujjain, controlled the seaports of Gujarat (which brings us back tangentially to the Jains). The Hindu rulers of Ujjain did not want to pollute themselves through contact with foreigners (in this case the Romans or Alexandrians), so they used the Indo-Greeks as middlemen to handle the foreign trade. This probably explains how a Greek astrological text ended up among the Yavanas or Indo-Greeks of Ujjain.

Somewhat to the south, the Svatavaha kingdom was equally concerned about "ritual pollution." They used Buddhists as middlemen to deal with the Roman/Alexandrian trade, as the Buddhists did not recognize the caste system. The Ajanta caves were paid for by the services of these Buddhist middlemen to the Svatavaha kingdom re: foreign trade. But there is absolutely no record of Hellenistic -- or any other -- astrological material entering India through the Svatavaha kingdom. The Buddhists were simply not interested.

I agree with you about the Jains. At one time they were a very influential force. Many ideas that we consider to be classically Hindu, such as vegetarianism or ahimsa, cannot be found in the Rig Veda and are first attested to in Jain scriptures.

I share your curiosity about the role that the Jains may have played in early astrology in India.

The Jainas have indeed exerted an influence on Indian culture far beyond what might be assumed from their present number (their role in India is comparable in several respects to that of the Jewish minority in Europe). As Kenneth notes, Jainas were particularly instrumental in the introduction of T?jika. Sanskrit works on astrology composed by Jaina authors, however, generally differ very little from those composed by Hindus.

Kenneth Johnson wrote:

Apart from the astrological portions of the Sardulakarnavadana, I am not aware of any major Buddhist astrological works created before the Buddhists crossed the Himalayas and modified the Chinese system.

Then prepare to be surprised! There is recent academic research on just that topic I intend to open a thread on soon. I am keeping my powder dry until then.

Kenneth Johnson wrote:

It is interesting to note that Pingree dates the arrival of the first Hellenistic astrological text in India to c. 150 CE. At that time, the Ksatrapa kingdom, with its capital in Ujjain, controlled the seaports of Gujarat (which brings us back tangentially to the Jains). The Hindu rulers of Ujjain did not want to pollute themselves through contact with foreigners (in this case the Romans or Alexandrians), so they used the Indo-Greeks as middlemen to handle the foreign trade. This probably explains how a Greek astrological text ended up among the Yavanas or Indo-Greeks of Ujjain.

I am not aware what part of India the text washed up in. However, there is little doubt to get to India through a land route in that period it had to come through the Kushan Empire. It controlled much of northern India during the 1st-3rd century. This Empire allowed a period of political stability and the security which allowed Buddhists to take their ideas along the Silk road to China. The Kushans were particularly sympathetic to Buddhism over Brahmanism.

Kenneth Johnson wrote:

But there is absolutely no record of Hellenistic -- or any other -- astrological material entering India through the Svatavaha kingdom. The Buddhists were simply not interested.

I cant really comment on that issue specifically in regards the Svatavaha Kingdom. Just to clarify Buddhist Monks were traditionally prohibited from practising astrology. It wasn't an issue of interest or disinterest. The Buddhist vinaya set restrictions on many roles that Buddhist Monks were not allowed to carry out. Any activity seen as a distraction from the path to Nirvana was seen as a 'low art' unsuitable for Monks. The early Buddhists no doubt normally followed the guidelines set out by the Buddha in texts like the Brahmajala Sutta.

http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ala-e.html

So this left a lot of areas that were left for Brahmins to exclusively provide. For example, even in Buddhist countries like Thailand today Brahmins carry out marriages as this are not permitted in Buddhist monastic rules. Astrology would be such an area.

However, the views and practices of the Buddhist laity are an entirely different matter. Plus later Buddhist sects and especially Tantric Buddhism were much less strict on the observance of monastic rules.

Anyway, I intend to return to the topic of 'Buddhist Jyotisha' in a forthcoming thread.

Mark

Martin Gansten wrote:

Sanskrit works on astrology composed by Jaina authors, however, generally differ very little from those composed by Hindus.

I have to defer to your knowledge on the issue of Sanskrit texts. I'm sure you know your sources.

However, my curiousity is based more on the earlier period of Jyotish development than the medieval one. I understand the normal language of Jain scriptures is Praktit not Sanskrit. I am therefore assuming there is a large body of Jain astrological texts that have not been translated yet.

http://www.ancientindianastrology.com/c ... &Itemid=59

Jain cosmology is certainly different and their outlook non-theistic. Plus we know that in the ancient period Jains adopted quite independent attitudes to astronomical issues. Scholars do describe a 'Jain school' of astronomy in the pre-Siddhantic era so I suggest a similar attitude might have pervaded their attitude to some astrological issues. Of course without more research into this topic this is only speculation on my part. And as I dont read any Indian languages I will have to hope someone else takes an interest in this topic one day.

Demographically Jains were a more sizeable and regionally widespread portion of the entire population across India before the medieval period.

http://www.jainworld.com/jainbooks/explain/e3.htm

Mark

Mark wrote:However, my curiousity is based more on the earlier period of Jyotish development than the medieval one. I understand the normal language of Jain scriptures is Praktit not Sanskrit. I am therefore assuming there is a large body of Jain astrological texts that have not been translated yet.

http://www.ancientindianastrology.com/c ... &Itemid=59

I very much doubt it, even if we include non-horoscopic astrology. The ancient Indian ethos was rather hostile to divination, which was seen as a low/impure activity by Buddhists and Jainas as well as brahmins. Jaina texts in Prakrit are not likely to contain much on the subject.

Jain cosmology is certainly different and their outlook non-theistic.

Only if we use a rather Abrahamic definition of theism. Jainas do not believe in a creator God, but they certainly believe in and worship gods, and also refer to the Jina as a 'great god', 'god of the gods', etc. (Incidentally, most Hindus do not believe in an Abrahamic-style creator God either. The 'heresy' of Buddhism and Jainism, from an orthodox brahminic perspective, is not their disbelief in a creator but their rejection of the Veda.)