I had a question about how the two concepts of pushing and reception work together in a particular example. In most cases I feel I'm able to work through the symbolism involved to reach a good understanding of what's going on, but in this one...well...you'll see. I'll break up each little situation (there are a few) into their own little section for clarity's sake.

The example is Mercury in Gemini applying to Jupiter in Gemini. In this situation Mercury is pushing management to Jupiter (as this always happen with application), so Mercury pushes its significations onto Jupiter who is woefully unable to bring them about since he is in his detriment.

At the same time, however, Mercury pushes power or virtue onto Jupiter since Mercury is applying to him from its domicile, this should strengthen Jupiter and allow it to be able to bring about what both he and Mercury signify, sort of like Mercury delivering a goal and a toolbox with just the right equipment to make the goal a reality.

Concurrently, Jupiter is receiving this aspect from his detriment, which should mean that he is injured by it and rejects the Gemini gift since its from a house of his enemy, thus sort of acting out in response to it.

All at the same time, Mercury is receiving Jupiter into its domicile, so is obligated to take care of Jupiter and let him do what he wants. So, is Mercury just smiling and letting the matters he governs sort of self-destruct? I mean, it feels to me like Mercury just handed over the keys to its house to its drunk uncle (including the key to the liquor cabinet) in this example.

So which is it? Is Jupiter more powerful and able to manifest its significations due to having Mercury's power pushed onto it, or is it still way too essentially debilitated to accomplish anything partly because it's rejecting the power Mercury is bestowing on it?

Please feel free to point out where I went wrong with this or if I'm misunderstanding anything/applying it incorrectly. I've been going around in circles with this all day and I feel like I can no longer tell my ups from my lefts.

Dear Mr Regulus,

Could you perhaps post the chart here whilst respecting privacy? Your description of the situation based on the given limited information well reflects the contemporary French astrologer Denis Labour?'s approach to read how each of the planets might 'feel' in the specific chart situation.

However, is the information you have hitherto stated adequate for judgement? How are Mercury and Jupiter otherwise configured, both essentially and accidentally? This will, methinks, affect their relationship. Also, judgement might well differ depending if it is based on a 'root' or an 'ancillary' map.

Best regards,

lihin

The scenario look likes as if it is...

Return of Light " Rud-un-Noor" (Persian)

Mercury wants to help Jupiter but Jupiter being in such a weak state is not able to accept/appreciate help ....

So, Mercury gets into bit bother by just wasting his/her time...

If Mercury had been weaker, the return of light would have been disaster but since mercury is strong in his sign. Its just a waste of time for him

Thank you for the replies! Sorry this one was delayed, I had a couple of issues to work out with posting the chart. This is a nativity, by the way.
Horatio, you're posting got me thinking a little bit, and I do believe I vaguely recall Bonatti saying something about weak planets being unable to have disposition committed to them.

Sorry for asking the question. Does this chart belong to a Male?

Hi Regulus,

Pushing and return of light are horary techniques. I have not used Horary points on a nativity.

The chart you have posted has a weak Jupiter but its not because of its position in the sign of Gemini.

No, it's a female chart.

I wasn't aware that pushing and returning are horary only techniques, I just assumed they were general astrology techniques. If that's the case, then don't think of this chart as a nativity and just think of it as an example of the techniques. Like, what should one do if they face a situation like this where the reception and pushing would imply different things?

Hi Regulus,

I may be wrong but I have used these techniques in Horary only. Birth Chart is full of potentials and Mercury catches up with Jupiter in a prgoressed chart.

If that happens to be a female chart...

It has a potential to excel in Occult and research oriented subjects...

Would have trouble regarding adjustment with her father and elder brother (if any)....

My two pence..no offense meant

These techniques are not exclusive to horary, but certainly are more commonly found in horary. The same techniques can be used in a nativity.

Regulus

Do not complicate the matter.

Mercury is applying from its domicile to Jupiter and so pushes its power to Jupiter. Jupiter is not strong and ordinarily Jupiter may not be able to actualise what is being pushed to it.
Two things help us out here: First Mercury is in a powerful enough place that it can push some of its virtue/power to Jupiter, which aids it.
Secondly Mercury will receive Jupiter and so to some extent will shield it from harm.

Jupiter is not so much harmed by the application as that it is not the kind of gift it likes, but due to the reception of Mercury will not be harmed by it.

Overall Jupiter would struggle to accept the light from Mercury but can do so to some extent because of the forcefulness of Mercury coupled with its reception of Jupiter.

Regulus wrote:
So which is it? Is Jupiter more powerful and able to manifest its significations due to having Mercury's power pushed onto it, or is it still way too essentially debilitated to accomplish anything partly because it's rejecting the power Mercury is bestowing on it?

regulus - seems you want to understand how powerful jupiter is in this chart by using medieval horary techniques. from my own point of view apart from the rules of horary, jupiter has passed thru the beams of the sun and is quite powerful. some schools of astrology would consider this planet as a vocational indicator for this reason as well. further to this, jupiter is very close to 0 aries axis which puts more emphasis on it as well as i see it. welcome to the world of subjective viewpoints - astrology - where anyone can say whatever they want to say if they have enough awareness of the countless techniques to draw from..

Good evening,

Here is the same chart in square format:
Here are essential and accidental dignities and debilities according to Mr William Lilly's point system:
And here are the calculations:

Female Nativity, 7/7/2001, 10h52 UT,
Rochester, New Hampshire, USA

Dignity Calculations (point system of Mr William Lilly)
Trigon rulerships according to Mr William Lilly
Chaldean confines (diurnal chart) and faces

Saturn is trip ruler of its sign +3
Saturn is in house 11 +4
Saturn is direct +4
Saturn is swift +2
Saturn is oriental +2
Saturn is free of suns beams +5

Jupiter is peregrine -5
Jupiter is in its detriment -5
Jupiter is in house 11 +4
Jupiter is direct +4
Jupiter is swift +2
Jupiter is oriental +2
Jupiter is under suns beams -4

Mars is peregrine -5
Mars is in house 5 +3
Mars is retrograde -5
Mars is slow -2
Mars is occidental -2
Mars is free of suns beams +5

Sun in mutual reception to Mars by triplicity
Mars +3
Sun +3

Sun is peregrine -5
Sun is in house 12 -5
Sun is slow -2

Venus is peregrine -5
Venus is in house 11 +4
Venus is direct +4
Venus is swift +2
Venus is oriental -2
Venus is free of suns beams +5

Mercury is domicle ruler of its sign +5
Mercury is in house 11 +4
Mercury is direct +4
Mercury is slow -2
Mercury is oriental -2
Mercury is free of suns beams +5

Moon is peregrine -5
Moon is in house 7 +4
Moon is slow -2
Moon is free of suns beams +5
Moon is waning -2

Mr Lilly apparently did not include the accidental honours of sect (hair?sis) in his point system. Saturn, Mercury (oriental, thus a member of the diurnal sect in this figure) and Jupiter are in 'Al-Hayzz', id est of the prevailing sect, above the horizon and in an active (masculine) sign, which significantly contributes to their well-being for 11th house matters.

We might try to expand Mr Paul's basic evaluation of the Pushing and Reception of Mercury and Jupiter. Four planets are posited in 11, making 11th place topics not only central to the Pushing and Reception but to the chart as a whole. As Mercury is both domicile Lord and Al-Mubtazz of the 2nd and 11th places, 2nd house topics (money) will be interwoven with 11th house ones. Saturn is also present and strong in the 11th whilst ruling the 6th (work) and 7th (partnership, marriage) places by domicile, the 7th as Al-Mubtazz and the 6th as co-Al-Mubtazz with Venus whilst the domicile ruler of the 6th, the debilitated Jupiter, is also in the 11th.

The Luminaries are averse to each other, the cadent Sun to the Ascendant, whom He rules by domicile and as Al-Mubtazz; to Mars (mitigated by mutual reception by triplicity; Mars is in trine to the Ascendant enabling the Sun to see the Ascendant), who opposes the stellium; and to the stellium itself. Moon, the only pivotal planet of the chart, is in opposition to the Ascendant but in trine to the stellium.

Those familiar with such delineations may, if they like, continue.

More specifically concerning the Pushing and Reception, we might note from the above table that Mercury is received in the confine of Jupiter.

Here are ecliptically conjunct stars with Mercury and Jupiter:

Mercury conjunct Al Hecka (nature of Mars) 0 06'
Mercury conjunct Meissa (nature of Jupiter and Saturn) 0 59'

Jupiter conjunct Betelgeuse (nature of Mars and Mercury) 0 01'
Jupiter conjunct Polaris (nature of Saturn and Venus) 0 10'

Here are the paranatellonta of Jupiter and Mercury:

Betelgeuse co-culminates and co-anti-culminates with Jupiter.
Acumen culminates when Jupiter is on the Nadir and vice-versa.
Al-Nath co-sets with Jupiter.

Aculeus culminates when Mercury in on the Nadir.
Phact co-culminates and co-anti-culminates with Mercury.
Alnilam co-culminates with Mercury.

Best regards,

lihin

Good morning,

Here is the same nativity shown with the 'classical' house system (Ascendent ./. 5 degrees = beginning of first house, others calculated from this point using Alcabitius semi arcs), one i find useful and simple to apply (no mental offset calculations) to ascertain the overall dynamism and engagement of the planets:
Except for its last part where methinks Petosiris' 8-place scheme is preferable to Timaeus' 7-place scheme in order to include the 3rd 'House of the Goddess', not averse to the Ascendant, amongst the "topics more directly advantageous to the native's sense of well being" - see pages 19 - 20 of Introduction to Traditional Astrology by Dr Benjamin Dykes, his suggestion concerning house systems is otherwise excellent.

The dynamic quadrant-based chart above seems quite relevant to the question of this thread, as Jupiter (the only planet exhibiting change) is posited in the cadent 12th field, making him quite weak and thus unlikely to be able to do much with the 11th house matters pushed onto him by Mercury. As Jupiter is the last planet of four in the 11th topical house, the pushing and reception are likely to occur late in the native's life. As Mercury is received in Jupiter's confine and Jupiter in Mercury's domicile, the Pushing and Reception will likely not be fraught by abrasion or misunderstanding.

Best regards,

lihin