13 by damon There is an ongoing debate among astrologers about the birth of the State of Israel. Some view the founding moment to have been when a ceremonial meeting was held to unilaterally declare the establishment of the state of Israel while others have focused on the process set out by the United Nations for the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine culminating in the end of the British Mandate for Palestine. Declaration of Establishment of State of Israel During the morning of May 14, 1948 in Tel Aviv, members of the People?s Council were secretly called to a meeting for 16:00 on that day. At that meeting, David Ben Gurion read out the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel. The reading lasted until 16:16 and was followed by a signing of the declaration by the council members, which was concluded at 16:32 or 16:37. Many astrologers have erected horoscopes for Israel based on one of these times. In the Declaration of May 14, 1948 there is the following revealing passage: WE DECLARE that, with effect from the moment of the termination of the Mandate being tonight, the eve of Sabbath, the 6th Iyar, 5708 (15th May, 1948), until the establishment of the elected, regular authorities of the State in accordance with the Constitution which shall be adopted by the Elected Constituent Assembly not later than the 1st October 1948, the People's Council shall act as a Provisional Council of State, and its executive organ, the People's Administration, shall be the Provisional Government of the Jewish State, to be called "Israel" [1]. On May 14, the papers Ha'aretz and Yediot Achronot declared this day as Last Day of Foreign Rule [2] In other words, the common understanding was that British rule was in effect until May 15th. This implies a mutual understanding of the Israelis and the British that sovereignity would be established at midnight. Proclaimed at midnight The headline in the Palestine Post (published in Jerusalem) on Sunday August 16, 1948 in bold letters declares STATE OF ISRAEL IS BORN and the text immediately following the headline reads: The first independent Jewish State in 19 centuries was born in Tel Aviv as the British Mandate over Palestine came to an end at midnight on Friday...[3] Moroever, the US goverment at 11 minutes PAST MIDNIGHT (Israel time) announced: This government has been informed that a Jewish State HAS BEEN PROCLAIMED in Palestine. [2] This statement comes further to light in view of additional reporting in the Palestine Post edition of May 16th: The creation of the "Medinat Yisrael", the state of Israel, was PROCLAIMED AT MIDNIGHT on Friday by Mr. David Ben Gurion...[3] In other words, even if the ceremony was held at 16.00 and not at midnight this was due to the Sabbath, which requires Israelis of the Jewish faith to be at home from sundown on Friday to sunrise on Saturday [4]. Nevertheless, the proclamation was considered to be made at midnight, validated by the fact that the US government recognised the proclamation only after it had been made at midnight (Israel time) and contemporary newspaper accounts. The British also validated the midnight time with the timing of their formal withdrawal from Palestine. Britain's last High Commissioner There is one additional and crucial piece of information to be gleaned from the front page of the Palestine Post on this day in an article titled Most Crowded Hours in Palestine's History. The excerpt of interest reads as follows: On Friday afternoon, from Tel Aviv, came the expected announcement of the Jewish State, and its offical naming at birth, "Medinat Yisrael" - State of Israel, with the swearing in of the first Council of Government. The proclamation of the State was made at midnight, coinciding with the sailing from Haifa of Britain's last High Commissioner. In other words, an event took place at midnight that was recognised by the Jewish people as a symbolic act heralding the birth of their state. The significance of this event was not lost on the Arabs either. With Palestine no longer a British territory and British troops having effectively departed, the Arab states invaded Israel on May 15th. While it is a fact that the declaration was read out and signed in the afternoon, it is also clear that the signed document was not completed on this day, as all the required signatures were not added until about two months later. To this we can add that the delegates signed a document that explicitly says the state came into effect at midnight. It should thus be amply demonstrated that the declaration specified the exact time for the state of Israel to come into being; at midnight on May 15, 1948. The understanding that this time was the symbolic time of the birth of the new state was then highlighted in the major newspaper, which was written by professional Jewish journalists of the time and whom we can assume reflected a correct understanding of this most important event of their day. Summary The main narrative of the events on that historic day was thus as follows 1. PURPOSE: The DECLARATION on May 14 was only about THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE STATE of Israel. - This is clearly stated in the title of the declaration. 2. TIMING: The declaration explicitly specified the END OF THE BRITISH MANDATE that same night as the time for the STATE TO COME INTO EFFECT. - This is also clearly spelled out in the text of the declaration. 3. CONCLUSION: The STATE of Israel was born at MIDNIGHT on MAY 15,1948 in Tel Aviv. - The creation of the state becomes the defining moment for the birth of the nation. GEOPOLITICAL CONTEXT For the benefit of those still sceptical or beholden to other interpretations it may be helpful to look more closely at the larger historical context of the founding of the new state. The Palestine Problem The Palestine problem is considered to have begun at the end of the First World War with the disintegration of the Turkish Ottoman Empire [5]. Palestine was at that time one of several former Ottoman Arab territories placed under the administration of Great Britain under the Mandates System adopted by the League of Nations pursuant to the League's Covenant (Article 22) . At the heart of the problem was an exodus of Jews from e.g. Europe to Palestine due to anti-semitism. Given their historic origins and initial exodus from Palestine, the Jewish people began to push for the formation of their own state there. This push for the re-establishment of a homeland for the Jewish People in Palestine developed into an international political movement termed Zionism. Following the persecution and genocide of Jews in Europe during World War II a resolution of the Palestine problem went to the top of the agenda of the international community. UN Partition Plan for Palestine On November 29, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution outlining the 'Future Constitution and Government of Palestine [6].' It called for the establishment of a provisional government for the Jewish State, which would be subject to certain constitutional requirements and guarantees. It required the inhabitants of Israel to take such steps as were necessary on their part for the implementation of that constitutional form of government. Moreover, the solution became intimately linked to the involvement of the United Kingdom in Palestine since 1922 on the basis of an agreement for a Mandate for Palestine. End of the British Mandate for Palestine In the UN Partition Plan, the ending of the British Mandate was stipulated as follows: . 1. The Mandate for Palestine shall terminate as soon as possible but in any case not later than 1 August 1948 [7]. In view of either the push for a Jewish state or the guidance in the UN Plan to end the mandate "as soon as possible," the UK advanced the time schedule for the end of the Mandate to take place at midnight on May 15, 1948. At the same time, the leadership of the Jews of Palestine acted quickly and with some amount of secrecy to ceremonially declare the founding of the new state on the very last day of the mandate. In other words, we can say that the historical evidence is clear on the course of events leading to Declaration ceremony. It was unambiguously driven by the ending of the mandate at midnight on May 15, 1948. The fact that the Declaration makes explicit reference to this time "with effect from the moment of the termination of the Mandate being tonight" shows clearly that the founding was timed to coincide with it. Significance of the ending of the Mandate The significance for the founding of the new state by the ending of the mandate appears to override that of the ceremony. The founding process was completely keyed to the ending of the mandate as guided by the UN Plan of 1947. The reason for this appears quite straightforward. There was staunch opposition by the Palestinian Arabs and neighbouring Arab states to the founding of a Jewish state in Palestine. This is quite clear given the arab invasion of Israel immediately after the ending of the mandate on August 15. It was therefore highly important for the Jewish state to be seen to be founded within the auspices of the UN Plan for it to have maximum international legitimacy. Conclusion of historical evidence The historical evidence is clear on the importance of the ending of the British Mandate in Palestine for the timing of the founding of the State of Israel. The Jewish state in Palestine took effect at midnight on May 15, 1948. This time gives 20? 56' Capricorn as ascendant in the sidereal zodiac. ASTROLOGY OF THE CHART It is accurate predictions that ultimately resolve debates about the birth time of collective entities. In particular, when a) the authentic birth moment b) an accurate method of horoscope interpretation c) the correct interpretation by the astrologer are combined, repeat accurate predictions should result, unambiguously settling such questions. Capricorn rising chart for Israel The Capricorn rising chart has a unique placement suggesting strife with neighbors. This is the placement of Ketu at 20? 53' - exactly on the rising degree in the 10th house (of the vedic sign=house system). From this point, Ketu, the lord of separation and sudden, even explosive events, aspects the 2nd house of neighbors, 4th house of communal harmony and the 6th house of fixity of views and conflict. Of course, Ketu also afflicts the 10th house of the executive government, signifying the burden on the government of the often sudden and strange developments. The exact affliction is consistent with the problems that Israel has faced with its neighbors from 'day one'. Contrarywise, Rahu, the indicator for manipulation, deception and diplomacy, is placed on the most effective point of the 4th house, from where it aspects the 8th house of obstacles and endings, the 10th house and the 12th house of foreign matters and losses. Indeed, there would be frequent crisis in the collective psyche due to conflicts with the indigenous population, the muslim arabs. The dispute of the Israelis and Palestinian arabs centers on the encroachment tendency of the Israeli's on land in Palestine since the creation of the state six decades ago [8]. This is consistent with Rahu exactly afflicting the 4th house of real estate, land and natural resources. With the 2nd lord Saturn on the most effective point of the 7th house of foreign relations, Israel has quite a bit of authority internationally. With the 7th lord Moon well placed and strong in its own 7th house, gives Israel, as a country, a prominent international dimension. As the Moon is debilitated in the Navamsa (9th divisional) chart, its strength is reduced, undermining the contribution of the Moon in this regard and making the country vulnerable to setbacks when the Moon is afflicted in transit. Mercury, as 9th lord of fortune, is favourably placed on the MEP of the 5th house, giving a young and dynamic population. Through the aspect of the lord of fortune on the most effective point of the 11th house, there is a steadfast friendship with the powerful USA, which has generously shared its financial, military and diplomatic resources with Israel. As the 8th lord Sun is well placed but weak in the chart, the authority of the leader is normally not strong - opposed to the strong Presidency of the USA, as seen also in the SAMVA USA chart. Mars as 4th lord is badly placed in the 8th house and under an afflicting aspect from Jupiter as 12th lord of losses. Moreover, as Jupiter is in the 12th house the aspect becomes more difficult. The condition of Mars in the chart is thus expected to give much upset to the collective harmony from setbacks such as deaths, losses and allround difficulties. The placement of Jupiter as 12th lord in its own sign and house, is helpful to its own indications of foreign matters, losses, etc. However, the exact aspect of Rahu to the most effective point of the 12th house, reduces its strength and involves its indications is continual strain, which can be amplified during Rahu or Jupiter periods and slow moving transit afflictions. As Rahu is the planet of manipulation, deception and worldly desire and Jupiter is the planet of religion and expansion, there could be a tendency for manipulation regarding the religious life, dealings with foreigners and in foreign diplomacy. Moreover, as Rahu simultaneously afflicts the 8th house of death, which houses Mars the planet of the military, which is directly afflicted by 12th lord Jupiter, the participation of Israel in wars and conflicts runs the risk of being associated with the tragic loss of lives of Israeli military and police personnel. As 10th lord Venus is badly placed in the 6th house, the country?s government is continually involved in conflict. There would also be fixity of views with regard to administrative matters, including foreign trade. Moreover, this placement undermines the comforts of the citizens and the condition of women in the country. Finally, we can note that the Capricorn ascendant fits well with the 'personality' of the Jewish people. It is a sign owned by Saturn, a planet characterised as being stern and representing old things. Indeed, the country is based on the history of the Jewish people in Palestine, stretching back into the hoary mists of time, and the Jewish religion spanning millenia. Indeed, the ancient morality of the Jews is highlighted in such dictums as an eye for an eye. In fact, this seems to be the approach taken by the Israeli government and military when dealing with frequent attacks by hostile elements in the neighboring arab communities or countries. The horoscope for Israel resonates strongly with the chart for the USA. While the US has the opposite sign, Cancer, in the ascendant. Both horoscopes have - 20? as the rising degree - the authorative placement of 2nd lord on the most effective point of the 7th house - afflicted 4th and 10th houses combined with a bad placement of the 4th lord, even if the condition of Israel is much worse in this regard. Prediction The difficulties facing Israel are likely to escalate and reach a boiling point towards the end of January and in first half of February. Currently, the Moon-Sun period is operating. This puts the indications of the Moon and Sun, as read from the chart, into prominence. The most significant transit in the chart at the present time is the conjunction of stationary Ketu at 15? 27' Cancer in the 7th house with natal 7th lord Moon at 15? 57' Cancer. This aspect began to be felt in early December 2008 and became exact on December 25. As this aspect will be closely felt until late February 2009, this suggests a grave strain on the indications of the Moon, including foreign relations, the public and the Israeli cabinet in the first months of the new year. As a side note, this is also a potent factor to explain why the other charts don?t add up. In relation to other times proposed on this day, we can see that on May 14, 1948 in Tel Aviv, the Moon was (in the sidereal zodiac) - at 4.00 pm at 11? 12' Cancer (29? 54' Virgo rising) - at 4.37 pm at 11? 34' Cancer (7? 44' Libra rising) Clearly, the nodes are not afflicting the Moon for these times. By comparison, on May 15, 1948 in Tel Aviv, the Moon was - at 00.00 am at 15? 57' Cancer (20? 56' Capricorn rising). In the Capricorn rising chart the affliction is clear. Adding to the strain in the month of December is the transit of 12th lord Jupiter into Capricorn around December 11, 2008. In its sign of debilitation Jupiter becomes weak and from the early degrees of this sign it has afflicted natal 8th lord Sun at 0? 50' Taurus in the 5th house, placing a strain on the ability of the leader to manage the country's affairs. Moreover, on December 16, transit Sun entered the 12th house and on the 20th became exactly conjunct natal Jupiter. This combination resulted in a setback for the country in terms of increasing problems in relations with the neighbors. The Hamas leadership in the Gaza Strip has been instigating bomb attacks on Israel. The violent reaction of the Israeli government and military from the 27th of December, while intended to strike at the source of the problem, may down the road only create more problems for the country. While the problems may be reduced slightly as the aspect of transit Jupiter to natal Sun clears, the transit of the Sun in the 12th house into the aspect of Rahu in the 4th house, around January 5th, 2009, may result in additional acts of violence. The nodal station harming the Moon is expected to keep things tense for some months and has already resulted in a setback for peace in the country and placed a strain on the country's foreign policy. Around January 29, when the sub-period lord Sun becomes conjunct stationary Rahu in transit, thus adding to the affilction of natal Moon, there could be a significant event. When Jupiter becomes conjunct Rahu, some losses could materialise. The upcoming Mars sub period is likely to bring increased problems and upsets for the country. Source [1] Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Proce ... f%20Israel [2] Historama on-line information resource http://www.historama.com/online-resourc ... _1948.html [3] Palestine Post headline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:19480 ... s_born.jpg [4] Sabbath http://www.backtoyahweh.com/ [5] Palestine Problem http://www.juragentium.unifi.it/en/surv ... istory.htm [6] UN Partition Plan for Palestine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nat ... _Palestine [7] British Mandate for Palestine http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/561c6e ... enDocument [8] Israel, Palestine and the Occupied Territories: Land and Settlement Issues http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/is ... pindex.htm Posted by Cosmologer at 7:31 AM http://cosmologer.blogspot.com/2008/12/ ... srael.html Quote Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:26 pm
17 by johannes susato An impressive and highly interesting lecture, damon, thank you! Johannes Quote Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:08 am
18 by james_m damon and johannes, if you like reading that sort of stuff and have an actual interest in mundane astrology, consider getting a copy of nicholas campions 'the book of world horoscopes'.. it reads in a very similar manner with one major difference - campion doesn't try to push a particular chart by making a firm "conclusion" as the author in damons article has.. it lets the reader come to his own conclusion which is hopefully based on doing rectification work themselves.. this is hard to do if you are still learning or in a beginning stage of learning astrology.. happy trails! Quote Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:51 pm
19 by Teiresias The midnight chart sounds interesting, and I may investigate it later,but the chart I'm using so far gets more down to the nitty gritty. "As above, so below" and vice versa. I am giving a summary of data given in Wkipedia's "List of Palestinian Rocket Attacks on Israel,2012." In 2012, there were seven months of low-level rocket and mortar attacks from gaza, averaging about 20 strikes per month, with usually "no injury or damage." The injuries and damages were very real, but occurred during the sharp escalations in March, June, October and especially November. There were 300 missiles between March 9-15, 84 projectiles in 99 separate instances June, many attacks in October--over 50 rockets on the 6th and at least 80 on the 24th. These were mainly attributed to attacks on high-ranking jihadist militants, but those on the 24th could be due to the attack on Khartoum. Things heated up even more in November. On the 9th, two Qassams were fired following an Israeli incursion into a Palestinian village where they killed a thirteen-year-old boy. This according to the Jerusalem Post. On the 10th Palestinian militants fired anti-tank missiles at an IDF jeep patrolling the border, wounding four soldiers. The IDF responded with tank fire,killing four Palestinian boys, aged 16, 17, 18, and 19. and wounding 38, on a football field. Further air strikes killed two Palestinian militants. Palestinians fired 28 rockets. IDF air strikes destroyed Palestinian targets which the IDF allegd were used for military purposes, a water tank, electric company office, brick factory, metal workshop, concrete factory, poultry farm, agricultural store, damaging six houses, wounding thirteen civilians. Wikipedia was citing an article by "The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights"(PCHR). On the 11th, the Palestinians fired 100 rockets and mortars, four people were injured, five suffered from acute stress. This sets the stage for the death on the 14th of Ahmed al-Jabari. Beauty is truth, truth beauty Quote Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:36 pm
20 by Teiresias For the death of Ahmed Jabari, I quote first the Israeli newspaper "Haaretz" "Hours before Hamas strongman Ahmed Jabari was assassinated, he received the draft of a permanent truce agreement with Israel, which included mechanisms for maintaining the cease-fire in the case of a flareup between Israel and the factions in the Gaza Strip. This, according to Israeli peace activist Gershon Baskin, who helped mediate between Israel and Hamas in the deal to release Gilad Shalit and has since then maintained a relationship with Hamas Leaders "Baskin told Haaretz on Thursday that senior officials in Israel knew about his contacts with Hamas and Egyptian intelligence aimed at formulating the permanent truce, but nevertheless approved the assassination." According to the "New Yorker", after Jabari was struck down, Israeli planes destroyed in one hour 90% of the Gazans' long-range missiles. This coincided with a total eclipse opposite Israel's natal Sun, even if we were to take the chart for zero hours on the fifteenth. I don't think it's appropriate to discuss "facts on the ground" at length in this forum, since they are available to all on the net. My greatest hope in regard to the Middle East is the winter solsitice this year, which is supposed to raise consciousness on this planet. Maybe just in time. Perhaps some environmental warning sign? Now the Israelis. Beauty is truth, truth beauty Quote Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:48 am
21 by Mark Hello Damon, I apologise that my time has been rather taken up on other mundane threads lately. Your recent post was very impressive and arrayed a lot of useful data here. Like Teiresias I have tended to favour a Scorpio rising chart. Although I have a different way of working astrologically. I still think it is highly significant that David Ben-Gurion and the other Zionist leaders held an official ceremony (publicly broadcast by radio) to the effect that they were establishing a Jewish state in Eretz-Israel, to be known as ''The State of Israel". The UN may have set a date for the creation of the new states of Israel and Palestine a few hours later but the Zionist leaders were clearly taking destiny into their own hands irrespective of what the British, UN or Arabs decided. I also have a question for you. If we take the UN official time for the creation of Israel at 00:00 hours on May 15th dont we then have to accept an almost identical chart located for Jerusalem for the state of Israel + Palestine too? The Israeli's and Palestinians both regarded Jerusalem as their effective capital irrespective of the territorial settlement established by the UN. Even if we locate the Israeli chart for Tel A Viv and the Palestinian chart for Jerusalem the charts are very similar. Mark As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly Quote Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:16 pm
22 by damon Hi Mark On the face of it, your logic sounds fine. However, I rather doubt that a new Palestinian entity was created at that time. This is more so as the main reaction to the creaton of the state of Israel came from outside Israel's new borders, when neighboring states invaded Israel but were repelled. Since that time, there have been some founding events for a Palestinian collective entiry, such as the creation of the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO) and now, very recently, the UN decision to recognise Palestine as a state with observer status. Quote Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:22 pm
23 by Mark Hello Damon, I think your argument has a logical flaw here. On the one hand you think the decisive factor in the creation a state of Israel was its recognition by an International agency (The United Nations). However, that same agency also recognised the creation of a state of Palestine at the same time. So logically its origin is the same. You highlight that the key difference was that the Israeli's were organized to take over effective statehood while the Palestinians were not. That is not entirely accurate. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (Haj Mohammed Effendi Amin el-Husseini) was admitedly a controversial figure having worked closely with the Nazis during WWII. Still prior to the end of the British mandate he formed his own militia, al-jihad al-muqaddas. Moreover, after the 1948 war he participated in the establishment of the first All-Palestine Government in September 1948 based in Egyptian controlled Gaza. Even if you completely dismiss the argument that Palestine automatically came into existence with the end of the British mandate there is an entirely different case that can be made for the belief that Palestine was 'born' as a state on May 15th 1948. While the Israeli declaration of independence is well known to date from May 14th 1948 it is less well known that The Arab League declared the creation of a unified state of Palestine (incorporating modern Israel) on May 15th 1948 as the armies of Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq invaded the territories of the new state of Israel. In an official cablegram from the Arab League in Cairo to the UN General Secretary on May 15, 1948, the Arab states officially declared the formation of a "United State of Palestine" in the place of the two-state concept created by the UN settlement. This occurred just as the neighbouring Arab countries sent their forces into Israel-Palestine with the United Kingdom mandate officially ending at midnight on May 15, 1948, http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... asion.html It therefore seems plausible to examine this as a significant chart for Palestinian nationhood. It could be located for Cairo or relocated to Jerusalem. If we accept this time for a chart it means the chart for the establishment of Palestine occurred shortly after the State of Israel. I opened a thread last year on the topic of a horoscope for Palestine. I should probably update it with the recent UN vote. I discuss various potential dates so I am not totally fixated on the 15th May 1948 date. I do think one needs to discuss a chart for Palestine if discussing Israel. http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6358 To be balanced here I do think we can question the sincerity of some of the Arab League countries participating in the invasion of Israel in 1948. In particular Trans-Jordan. The leader of Trans-Jordan King Abdullah is known to have had designs to annex the Arab part of British Mandatory Palestine to Jordan. To some extent he succeeded in that plan with the acquisition of the so called 'West Bank' as a part of Trans-Jordan. This remained the case until the Arab-Israeli war in 1967 which led to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank. Mark As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly Quote Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:56 pm
24 by damon Hi Mark The facts don`t seem to support the idea On 14 May 1948, the day before the expiration of the British Mandate, David Ben-Gurion declared the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz Israel, to be known as the State of Israel. In an official cablegram from the Secretary-General of the League of Arab States to the UN Secretary-General on 15 May 1948, the former stated the only fair and just solution to the problem of Palestine is the creation of United State of Palestine. The Arab League claimed the UN Plan of Partition was invalid, as it was opposed by Palestine's Arab majority, and maintained that the absence of legal authority made it necessary to intervene to protect Arab lives and property. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestine_war The suggestion that a United State of Palestine be created was made on May 15, while the British mandate ended at midnight on May 14. Even then, it appears to only have been a suggestion given the circumstances, an afterthought. We can therefore dismiss the argument for a twin birth of Israel and Palestine at the moment the former came into being as a sovereign state. Moreover, we can also be sceptical that such a reality was in the offing for Palestine on May 15. In real life, a birth follows a given gestation period. There is clear evidence of this in the case of Israel, but not of Palestine. The same logic applies to the birth of the USA. Some people think that declaring independence from the British, taking up arms against them, or having a communal counsel to resolve a political dispute, were sufficient to create a legal union of the states. This overlooks the fact that a duly legal process took place to effect said union. The SAMVA USA chart is based on such an event - the birth of a nation at the conclusion of a gestation period. That said, if a case can be made for a Palestine state to have been formed following the creation of Israel, I am all for you exploring it. Quote Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:38 pm