Good evening,

A link to the main Wikipaedia article on Klaudios Ptolemaois is HERE. The article includes a brief analyses of his geography. We glean that it included about 180 degrees of longitude and 80 degrees of latitude, about 1/ 4 of the world and that Ptolemy was aware that his geography did not include the other 3/4.

The fact that the geographical centre of the earth lies within the central zone defined by Ptolemy is a rather strong indication in my humble opinion that the terse, rather polemic dismissal of Ptolemy's mundane astrological system by Mr Charles Harvey, co-author of the book Mundane Astrology, as stated in Chapter 11: WHERE ON EARTH: 2 The Search for the Earth Zodiac, Section 1. The Ptolemaic Allocations:

"... it is difficult to see how we can now class his main scheme of allocations as anything but entirely arbitrary and worthless."

was premature, presumptuous and probably erroneous.

Astrologically, it may be well worth the effort, using the hypothesis that Ptolemy's mundane astrology has not yet been invalidated but perhaps can be extended to apply to the other 3/4 of the world, to diligently research these matters. Some competent mundane astrologers since the Renaissance may already have contributed to the task. References to such work by fellow forum members will be much appreciated.

Best regards,

lihin

I think this topic is rather abstract and impractical without some discussion of the pivotal role of astrological directionology in ancient astrology. This topic has been totally neglected in our discussion to date.

In particular many of the answers to this issue are found in Babylonian beliefs that long pre-date Greek astrology. There is direct evidence they were fundamental to the origin of the four triplicities. Much more so than the Greek philosophical ideas that are often cited.

We see hints of this system of astrological directionology in various hellenistic sources.

For example Vettius Valens (2nd century CE) states of the sign of Gemini:

Quote:
'

it lies in the west wind'.

The Anthology, Book 1, ch2

Claudius Ptolemy also discusses the link between the triplicities and four winds. For example in the Tetrabiblos he states:

Quote:

"the angles are the four cardinal points of the horizon whence are derived the general names of the winds."

This and various other references in hellenistic astrology demonstrates that the organization of the signs into triplicities was originally based on the four winds or directions. This is much more ancient than the assigning elements to each triplicity.

The original organization of the zodiac into four astrological triplicities came from the four winds or directions in Babylonian omen astrology.
Maria J. Mateus in the Summer 2009 issue of The Geocosmic Journal. Titled ?The Geographical Astrology of Babylonia,? extensively discussed the four winds and directionality in Babylonian omen astrology. Mateus states:

Quote:

?A Babylonian tablet (BM 36746) dating to sometime after 400 BC, groups the zodiacal signs with winds and lands in this manner:

Aries, Leo, Sagittarius- North Wind-Akkad
Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn- South Wind- Elam
Gemini, Libra, Aquarius- West Wind- Amurru
Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces- East Wind- Subartu

Quote:

"The earliest Greek source, associating the winds with the triplicities, is in the Isagoge of Geminus (written ca. 50 CE), wherein he states that the doctrine comes from the Chaldeans. His wind arguments correspond with that of BM36746, indictating that the Hellenistic triplicity scheme is, in fact, Babylonian in origin and based upon a schematization logic that probably predates the use of the zodiac, since these associations appear in monthly groupings of older omens in the same way they appear as zodiac signs...? (p. 74)

Here is a free link to the whole excellent article: http://mariamateus.squarespace.com/portfolio/academic/

This tradition can be seen as the direct ancestor of contemporary astrological techniques such as Ptolemy?s system of astrological geography which assigns triplicities to quarters of the world and sectors within these seems to be just a refinement of an ancient Bablyonian tradition found in omen texts. Equally, lost property questions in horary rely on the same system of assigning directions to each triplicity.

There is also clear evidence that the idea of planetary rulers of each triplicity originated in Babylonian astrology too. In particular Babylonian astrology assigned a particular planet to each direction or wind. This also linked to the zodiacal triplicities. These ideas are referenced by Ptolemy in the Tetrabiblos. For example in his chapter II concerning mundane astrology Ptolemy states:

Quote:

Now of the four triangular formations recognized in the zodiac, as we have shown above, the one which consists of Aries, Leo, and Sagittarius is northwestern, and is chiefly dominated by Jupiter on account of the north wind, but Mars joins in its government because of the south-west wind. That which is made up of Taurus, Virgo, and Capricorn is south-eastern, and again is governed primarily by Venus on account of the south wind, but conjointly by Saturn because of the east wind. The one consisting of Gemini, Libra, and Aquarius is north-eastern and is governed primarily by Saturn because of the east wind, and conjointly by Jupiter because of the north wind. The triangle of Cancer, Scorpio, and Pisces is south-western and is governed primarily, because of the west wind, by Mars, who is joined by Venus as co ruler on account of the south wind. Tettrabiblos , Book II, Chapter 3.

The astronomer Geminus relates in section II,9 of his Introduction to the Phenomena (aka Isagoge) written around 50BCE that the system of assigning directions to triangles was Chaldean in origin. His list of the four winds linked to the astrological triplicities is identical to that set out in the Mesopotamian omen texts. This tradition was merged with the compatible indigenous Greek tradition of Anemoi or the four winds.

I refer members to the English translation of Geminus now available by James Evans and J. Lennnart Berggren.

One very intriguing and significant point is that Claudius Ptolemy reverses the direction of the third and fourth triplicity found in Geminus and the Babylonian omen texts. Hence Ptolemy assigns the third triplicity (Gemini, Libra and Aquarius) to the eastern direction and the fourth triplicity (Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces) to the western direction.

Quote:

The third triangle is the one drawn through Gemini, Libra, and Aquarius, composed of three masculine signs, and having no relation to Mars but rather to Saturn and Mercury because of their houses. It was assigned in turn to these, with Saturn governing during the day on account of his sect and Mercury by night. The sign of Gemini lies toward the summer tropic, Libra toward the equinox, and Aquarius toward the winter tropic. This triangle also is primarily of eastern constitution, because the sect of Jupiter has familiarity with Saturn, inasmuch as it is diurnal.

The fourth triangle, which is the one drawn through Cancer, Scorpio, and Pisces, was left to the only remaining planet, Mars, which is related to it through his house, Scorpio; and along with him, on account of the sect and the femininity of the signs, the moon by night and Venus by day are co?rulers. Cancer is near the summer circle, Scorpio lies close the time of winter one, and Pisces to the equinox. This triangle is constituted pre?minently western, because it is dominated by Mars and the moon; but by admixture it becomes south-western through the domination of Venus. Tetrabiblos Book 1, chapter 18

Another tradition of assigning the winds and directions to the triplicities is found in Paul of Alexandria:

Quote:

Foreknowledge of the Winds.
It is possible to know the winds that are about to blow by the separations and applications the Moon (and) from the triplicities. For if the Moon has an application by trine or separation by trine with some star in the first triplicity Aries-Leo-Sagittarius,(the wind) will be Apeliotes, (The East Wind); in the second triplicity Taurus-Virgo-Capricorn, Notos (The South Wind), in the third triplicity Gemini-Libra-Aquarius, the wind becomes westerly; and in the fourth triplicity Cancer-Scorpio-Pisces, Boras, (The North wind) . And whether it will be stormy will be known by the nature of the Star. Introduction to Astrology by Paul of Alexandria, chapter 18

?It[Aries] lies <in> zone of Persia, having been apportioned to the east wind?
?It[Taurus] lies in the zone of Babylon, apportioned to the south wind.?
?It[Gemini] lies <in> zone of Cappadocia, apportioned to the west wind.?
?It[Cancer] lies <in> zone of Armenia, apportioned to the north wind?.
Introduction to Astrology by Paul of Alexandria, chapter 2

Paul of Alexandria's directional tradition seems to be the one that went on to influence Arab and medieval astrology. An interesting example of Ptolemy's approach not being generally adopted in the western tradition. For example we see it in Al-Qabisi (Introduction to Astrology,Ch.I.16) and 17th century books such as William's Lilly's Christian Astrology and William Ramesey's Astrology Restored. Ironically, though Lilly and Ramesey follow many of the astrological associations of countries laid out by Ptolemy (Britain, Germany, France-Aries, Spain-Sagittarius, Italy- Leo) yet the they do not follow the same directional approach he advocates for the location of this triplicity.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/wit.html

To summarise the three directional traditions of the triplicities:

Aries-Leo-Sagittarius
Direction: Northern (Babylonian/Geminus), Northern (Ptolemy), Eastern (Paul of Alexandria)

Taurus-Virgo-Capricorn
Direction: Southern (Babylonian/Geminus), Southern (Ptolemy), Southern (Paul of Alexandria)

Gemini-Libra-Aquarius
Direction: Western (Babylonian/Geminus/Valens), Eastern (Ptolemy), Western (Paul of Alexandria)

Cancer-Scorpio-Pisces
Direction: Eastern (Babylonian/Geminus), Western (Ptolemy), Northern (Paul of Alexandria)

So I think any discussion of ancient astrological geography must incorporate the four winds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_compass_winds

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemoi

Mark

Mark wrote:
One very intriguing and significant point is that Claudius Ptolemy reverses the direction of the third and fourth triplicity found in Geminus and the Babylonian omen texts. Hence Ptolemy assigns the third triplicity (Gemini, Libra and Aquarius) to the eastern direction and the fourth triplicity (Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces) to the western direction.

Mark

I was checking this in fact. Ptolemy switches the east with the west. According Bezza because the East is the point where the Sun rises so it fits better with Saturn (ruler of Air triplicity), and on the other hand the West to the Moon and Mars (triplicity ruler of Water) where the Sun sets.

margherita

Good evening,

Meanwhile i have discovered the work of Dr. phil. George C. Noonan, Jr. on the subject of this thread in his (in my humble opinion quite useful) book Fixed Stars & Judicial Astrology, in particular Chapter VI, Judicial Astrology, pages 85 - 110.

The author discusses in detail Klaudios Ptolomaios' approach to judicial (a superset of mundane) astrology. He compares and contrasts it to modern approaches and innovations.

Here is a sample from pages 88 - 89:

"An analysis of Tetrabiblos (ii:3) in light of modern geography indicates a quite logical division of the world in terms of the then accepted data base: the science and philosophy of Aristotle. ... Charles E. O. Carter, in An Introduction to Political Astrology, asserts that this scheme of Ptolemy's '... was decidedly pre-scientific' and should therefore be discarded. But from the foregoing it can be seen that nothing can be farther from the truth. Ptolemy's quartering was both scientific (in terms of the then known data base) and consistent with observation!"

Best regards,

lihin