Good afternoon,

Thank you, Mr Mark, for the information. It might be quite interesting and educational not only for me but for other forum members to learn about the results of your research concerning fixed stars' proceeding into the next tropical signs. Have you published delineations? If i have understood Ptolemy's work correctly, certain geographical zones and countries would be more and differently affected by such events than others. If your work is more general than this thread's topic, you might like to open a specific thread of broader scope.

Methinks it also important to investigate the questions of 'ecliptical longitude vs. right ascension'. Perhaps both methods might be valid but in different ways. How do you, Mr Mark, understand the text quoted above? Is there no astrological literature on this from the more than 18 centuries that have elapsed since Klaudios Ptolomaios wrote the Tetrabiblos?

Best regards,

lihin

As I wrote in the previous thread about the centre of the earth, I agree with Mark that countries are assigned to planets according the directions of of the compass and rulers of triplicities.

Some authors talked about the places' stars (genius loci) as Cardano and Stade when the star has the same declination as the place latitude. These are the vertical stars.

Stade mentions the horizontal stars too- in this case the declination of the star + the latitude of the place should be 90.

Writes Stade:
Vertical stars should be judged like that: the temperament and the habits of the regions will be duplicated and will be conveyed in those natives these stars are culminating at the birth, so they are elevated to honours with the public favour and inclination. If they will be besieged by malefic rays, especially by Mars and Moon, those natives will be put down by the inconstancy and rebellion of the mob.

Those for whom, the stars touching the horizon, are seen in the horizon circle, in that region or for this reason, for the decency of the habits, will have an higher rank in offices and honours than those influenced by the usual constitution, so you could call this position of the star, genius of the place, because of the natural influence of the heaven which encloses in this way this region.

margherita

Lihin wrote:

Thank you, Mr Mark, for the information. It might be quite interesting and educational not only for me but for other forum members to learn about the results of your research concerning fixed stars' proceeding into the next tropical signs. Have you published delineations? If i have understood Ptolemy's work correctly, certain geographical zones and countries would be more and differently affected by such events than others. If your work is more general than this thread's topic, you might like to open a specific thread of broader scope.

I haven't published anything on this. Although I have given a few talks on the subject. I dont mean to sound unhelpful to you or other members here. I generally try to share whatever I have on the forum. However, my research is still ongoing and requires more time. Moreover, the internet has some unscrupulous types who would swipe such work and pass it off as their own. What I can say is that I see these movements in terms of long term historical cycles in the same way Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions are traditionally understood with a change of triplicity. Actually, I am more likely to try to produce something on that latter issue first. Another topic i have been looking into for a while now is comets. I think they provide a challenge to the common notion that mundane astrology is all about repeating cycles. Comets represents the apocalyptic or chaos element thrown into the traditional astrological concept of cosmic order.

Lihin wrote:

Methinks it also important to investigate the questions of 'ecliptical longitude vs. right ascension'. Perhaps both methods might be valid but in different ways. How do you, Mr Mark, understand the text quoted above? Is there no astrological literature on this from the more than 18 centuries that have elapsed since Klaudios Ptolomaios wrote the Tetrabiblos?

Ptolemy isn't much help to us on this topic as he only hints at the influence of fixed stars on mundane matters. I think he was simply paying respect to an older astrological tradition. To find more on that take a look at Teucer of Babylon and Valens who describe the 12 signs and both delineate countries based on the parts of constellations that rise there. The idea almost certainly pre-dates Teucer. Teucer splits the constellations into the decans. However, Valens seems to be doing something different. For example, look at his description of the countries associated with the sign of Taurus:

The following zones are subject to Taurus: to its head, Media and the adjoining areas; to its breast, Babylon; to the right side toward Auriga, Scythia; to the Pleiades, Cyprus; to the left side, Arabia and
the surrounding areas; to its shoulders, Persis and the Caucasus mountains; to its truncated portion, Sarmatia; to its loin, Africa; to its torso, Elymais; to its horns, Carthage; to its midparts, Armenia,
India, Germany. The Anthology by Vettius Valens Book 1, ch2, translated by Dr Mark Riley.

How do India and Germany link together? It cant be celestial declination of these stars as the latitudes of these countries are far apart. So are constellation positions projected on to the ecliptic? Hard to say how without some explanation of how these parts of the world were associated. I confess I find Valens quite perplexing here. ??

What about astrological directionology? This is generally helpful in understanding associations for countries in ancient astrology. The approach adopted by Paul of Alexandria seems to have been the mainstream one (again Ptolemy is odd man out). Although its not all neat and tidy. For example, in his Astronomica Manilius assigns India to Pisces and Cancer. :???:However, I dont think directionology helps much in deciphering the system of astrological geography using fixed stars adopted by Valens and Teucer of Babylon.

Unfortunately, I feel we are missing many of the important pieces in the astrological jigsaw to fully reconstruct what Valens was thinking. One important work on the fixed stars and constellations we have lost (amongst many) is 2 books on the Sphaera Barbarica and the Sphaera Graecanica written in the the 1st-century BCE by the Roman senator and astrologer Nigidius Figulus (circa 100-45 BCE), a revivalist of Pythagoreanism.. The term Sphaera Barbarica and Sphaera Graecanica was first used by Nigidius Figulus. It is thought that Nigidius' work on the Sphaera Barbarica was probably derived from the like-named work of Asclepiades of Myrlea.
I suspect this work would have been very helpful in mundane associations too.

In summary ancient astrology seems to suggest three basic approaches to identifying the zodiacal associations of countries:

1 A system of astrological geography based on directionology. Found amongst many ancient texts but most systematically in Ptolemy. Ptolemy revises some aspects of the tradition here. In particular reversing the directional associations of the zodiacal triplicities of the east and west. Ptolemy, significantly advances this approach to directionology by utilising his vastly superior knowledge of geography. Rather than just offering associations in what was often a random. haphazard way Ptolemy gives us a well thought out system of astrological geography encompassing the then known world.

2 Fixed stars linked to countries. Found explicitly in Teucer of Babylon and Valens.

3 Foundational charts for cities. This is suggested by Ptolemy in the Tetrabiblos. However, the idea was common. For example, there was much discussion of the foundational chart for Rome. Rome was linked to the sign of Libra. There was even proposed foundational charts for this. This contrasted to Italy as a whole which was linked to the sign of Scorpio by most ancient astrologers (excluding Ptolemy).

Mark

Good evening,

Thank you, Ms Margherita. If we take as above Cagliari, Sardinia, Italy, latitude 39n13' as an example, we see declinations of fixed stars as follows:

Vertical

Seginus 38n15'
Vega 38n48'
Algol 41n0'

Horizontal: 90 ./. 39n13' = 50n47' declination

Mirfak 49n54'
Eltanin 51n29'

Would this be correct? What is the maximum recommended 'orb'?

Should Ptolemy's text quoted above in two translations be understood like this or are these additional techniques?

What are the names of the books by Cardano and Stade, please, and where are they available in which language(s)?

Best regards,

lihin

I'm glad Margherita has mentioned Jean Stade.

Margherita has an excellent piece on her website on his system of linking the declination of fixed stars to cities. Its very interesting.

http://heavenastrolabe.net/stade-on-fixed-stars/

For the benefit of members reading this unfamiliar with this approach here is a basic introduction:

Stade discusses two kinds of fixed star connections to cities. Vertical and Horizontal stars. Firstly, in what Stade calls vertical stars the celestial declination of the star is the same as the terrestrial latitude of a place. For example, New York in modern times has the same terrestrial latitude as the celestial declination of the fixed star Algol. New York city 40?42 / Algol 40?57 (2000) Equally, Washington DC is close in latitude to the celestial declination of Vega. Washington latitude 38?89 /Vega celestial declination 38?47 (2000)

Stade seems to be the first astrologer to link cities not just to vertical stars ie that have the same celestial declination as a city but also horizontal stars.

Horizontal stars of a place/city are those which during its daily motion (i.e. with daily rotation of the celestial sphere), touches the horizon, but doesn?t cross it. It can be identified easily having the latitude of the city and the declinations of the fixed stars.

The calculation is very easy. First, we have to subtract the geographical latitude of the city (no matter northern or southern, just the absolute value) from 90 degrees. Then we have to find a fixed star having the same declination (again, no matter northern or southern) as the result of the subtraction.

For example:
The latitude of London is 51n30. 90? ? 51?30? = 38?30?
The fixed star Vega (? Lyrae) has declination 38n28, therefore Vega is the horizontal star of London.

These connections change over time due to precession. Due to the proliferation of stars I would stick to a 1/2 degree orb for lower magnitude stars and up to 1 degree for brighter important fixed stars.

Mark

Good morning,

If i have understood correctly, a horizontal star for Cagliari on 20 March 2013 might also be Canopus, Declination 52s45', but since it is nearly two degrees more than 50s47', it is out of orb. Furthermore, since Canopus is further south than 50s47', it never rises. Methinks, therefore, since we here have visual phenomena, fixed stars never rising should be excluded from the horizontals, even if they be 'within orb'. On the other hand, fixed stars within orb that never set remain visible and therefore should not be excluded. Example: Eltanin as listed above. Does this make sense?

If we take the data for Cagliari on 22 March 150, we find 'within orb' the vertical star Deneb Adige with Declination 39n45'. As horizonal star visible and within orb we find Agena (Beta Centauri) with Declination 50s32'.

The Italian translation linked at Ms Margherita's web site contains three chapters of Mr Jean Stade's book. Did he intend 'vertical' and 'horizontal' stars related to a place to be a direct application of Ptolemy's text quoted above or are these new techniques developed by him and / or others?

Best regards,

lihin

PS If we extend this thread to all astrological writing on fixed stars from Babylonian times until the Renaissance, we might find much of interest but scarcely be able to use the techniques, many if not most of them 'compilations of anecdotes', to productively read mundane charts. Ptolemy had in my humble opinion the considerable and rare merit of attempting to describe a coherent, universal system of mundane astrology based on general 'scientific' principles that was also the foundation of his system of natal astrology.

lihin wrote: The Italian translation linked at Ms Margherita's web site contains three chapters of Mr Jean Stade's book. Did he intend 'vertical' and 'horizontal' stars related to a place to be a direct application of Ptolemy's text quoted above or are these new techniques developed by him and / or others?

Vertical stars have been used at least by Cardano (in Libellus de Supplemento Almanach), about horizontal stars I don't know any other mention.
Are they directly linked with Ptolemy? You know how these authors worked, each of them had his own reading of Tetrabiblos, so it could be.

Before you ask me, in Cieloeterra they don't work with stars longitude, they prefer their mundane position,
margherita

Margherita wrote:

Before you ask me, in Cieloeterra they don't work with stars longitude, they prefer their mundane position,

As noted we have absolutely nothing to go on in the Tetrabiblos regarding what astrological technique Ptolemy used with fixed stars. I can only assume Bezza is in part influenced by Ptolemy's Phases of The Fixed stars? This is a work of astrological weather prediction utilising the fixed stars. The tables in the book provide information on rising and setting of stars in different climata.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climata

This fits into the ancient Greek tradition of parapagmeta which provided calendars and weather prediction based on the fixed stars. Daryn Rosario Lehoux has written a comprehensive book on this subject entitled:

Astronomy, Weather, and Calendars in the Ancient World: Parapegmata and Related Texts in Classical and Near Eastern Societies. Cambridge/New York: Cambridge University Press, 2007.

http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2008/2008-12-28.html

Fortunately Lehoux's Doctoral thesis, on which the book is based, is available free to download online.

It was entitled: Parapegmata, Astrology, Weather, and Calendars in the Ancient World

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/obj/ ... Q53766.pdf

Its a mine of relevant information relating to ancient understanding of fixed stars. Sad though that the author felt the need to drop the word astology and replace it with astronomy to gain academic recognition.

We also know from the Handy Tables and Almagest that Ptolemy was one of the very few astrologers that could provide the rising and setting times of stars in all the climata. One can imagine Ptolemy preferring the far greater astronomical precision involved in mundane positions of the stars.

Simply, projecting stars position on to the ecliptic (regardless of declination) seems a rather crude method for an astromomer of Ptolemy's sophistication. With this method a star is projected on to the same zodiacal degree all across the earth until the star slowly moves away through precession. Moreover, how would Ptolemy have linked stars to specific locations? The only way this could have worked in mundane terms would be if he had exact degrees for the ASC, Moon or Sun in the foundation of a city. This is actually quite possible as Ptolemy does mention this approach in Tetrabiblos.

However, Ptolemy would been more aware than any of his contemporaries that in terms of diurnal motion stars rise, culminate and set at different zodiacal degrees depending on one's location on earth.

Stade's system has the same generalised approach to stars using declination rather than projection on to the ecliptic. However, since it links locations across earth in the same climata ie latitude to certain fixed stars I can see it more readily fitting the Ptolemaic view based on climatology. However, that is only conjecture on my part.

Mark