sun sign and lord of the manner 1 by cyber_brujo Just had some questions on the sun and moon and character in traditional astrology. I have been reading Lilly CA3 and Ptolemy trans. by Ashmand and I see nothing like sun and moon signs. In Ptolemy's book 3 chapter 18 on the quality of mind, he does not use the luminaries at all, only the other five planets, and judges these by angle positions and universal attributes of the planet, not by the sign they are in. Lilly uses the luminaries with other factors in reading temperament, but no reference to them by sign. Same for determining manner. Moon and Mercury for the wit, but no Sun in Scorpio or even Moon in a sign. Still tring to adjust to the traditional view. Am conptemplating pushing the outer three out the door, forever! Quote Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:10 am
2 by Tom Book 3 Chapter 18 of Tetrabiblos (Ashmand)discusses what we usually call the significator of the manners, and Ptolemy does not include the Sun or Moon as contenders for this acknowledgement. The SOM is the planet or (usually) planets that most engage Mercury (rational mind) and the Moon (emotional mind and/or imagination). Think left brain - right brain and you'll get the idea. The SOM is how the temperament is expressed. Without first determining temperament the SOM is less useful. Another contender for the significator of the manners is a planet in the first house which definition may be modified as a planet in the first house that is in the same sign as the ASC and within a few degrees of the ASC. If there is none, then we look for a planet or planets that aspect, tightly, the Moon and Mercury. After that it gets tricky. A quick example is that of Adolph Hitler. April 20, 1889 6:30 PM LMT Branaunau am Inn, Austria Moon is in Capricorn Mercury is in Aries There are no planets in the first house and no planets that tightly aspect both Mercury and the Moon. Mars is the exaltation ruler of the Moon and domicile ruler of Mercury, so Mars is one candidate. Saturn is elevated, the dispositor of the Moon and in aspect to Mars (and Venus the ASC ruler), and in aspect by sign to Mercury, so he is the other likely candidate, although some consideration should be given to Jupiter who is conjunct the Moon and in a Mars sign. From here we would read what Ptolemy has to say about Saturn and Mars in less than admirable condition since both are in detriment. The words "submissive to evil" and "thoroughly depraved" are mentioned. The Greeks and medievalists, although acknowledging the power of the Sun and Moon did not think in terms of "I am a Taurus; she is a Libra." The Sun and Moon have important roles to play, but they are not treated in the same way as modern astrology treats them. In determining temperament the influence of the Sun is based on the season of the birth, not simply the sign. So Sun in Aquarius is a winter birth and the Sun's influence is cold and wet modified by the sign not his natural hot and dry. In the winter the Sun is in Capricorn, Aquarius, or Pisces. The, therefore, cold, wet Sun in Capricorn (cold and dry) is very cold and mildly wet. In Aquarius (warm and wet) the Sun is less cold and very wet. In Pisces (cold and wet) the Sun is very cold and very wet. Cold and wet is phlegmatic, so a Pisces Sun is a strong phlegmatic, but an Aquarius Sun is warmer and less phlegmatic, and a Capricorn Sun, being very cold, is more melancholic. However, any other use of the Sun in the chart, for example aspects, the Sun's influence is hot and dry modified by the sign in which he is posited. The Moon's influence in temperament is based on the phase which symbolizes a season. New to first quarter is spring time so warm and moist. First quarter to full is summer, so hot and dry, full to second quarter autumn so cold and dry, third quarter to full, winter so cold and moist. Heat promotes growoth; cold destroys it. The winter Sun is not as powerful as the Summer Sun. The Moon gains power as she gains light and loses power as she loses light. If the Sun and Moon were simply treated as they are in their natural state they would always be hot and dry and cold and wet, respectively, for everyone, and that makes no sense. The importance of the lights in traditional astrology is more refined and precise than it is in modern astrology where the Sun is the Sun, never gaining or losing power as a result of season or sign. He just gives the most influence determined by sign. There are no such universally accepted attributes of the three outer planets, although some astrolgoers have made attempts. Therefore it is difficult to work them into this wonderfully organized scheme. Some astrologers use the outer planets in a manner similar to the way fixed stars are used since the outers, movements are so slow compared to the classical planets. Hope this helps. Tom Quote Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:11 pm
3 by cyber_brujo Thanks Tom, That clarified quite a bit for me. I notice some people making a hybrid of modern and traditional astrology, using the modern for the character analysis. It seems to me it would be better to just refine the methods of character and personal potential analysis using the traditional methods and jettisoning the modern techniques. Quote Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:27 am
4 by kerenhappuch Hi Tom, A very interesting paragraph. I'm getting to grips with the traditional humours/qualities slowly but surely. Your post was really useful. Thanks Keren Quote Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:12 pm
5 by Ile I also had problems with both those terms such as Lord of the Manners and Lord of the Geniture. I like Tom's explanations on these concepts. I'm learning a lot from his writings about Medieval and Renaissance astrology! Even though they [these concepts] were not invented in the Renaissance, their name [as such], as far as I'm aware, is more often mentioned in the practice of the so called Renaissance astrologers (or late medieval if you like). I was reading through the book Anatomy of Melancholy the other day, and found an interesting example which I think, is fitted for posting it here. Robert Burton was a Renaissance polymath and astrologer. His life work of researching was put in the book titled "Anatomy of Melancholy" which is a sort of autobiography resulted from the years of seeking answers to his own problems with the melancholy and solitudes [some Psychologists regards this book as a real gem today]. This is a book of about 1000 pages, and you would have to have real patience and discipline to read it through, and also some basic knowledge of Latin, since he uses Latin phrases a lot through out the book. In describing his own chart: he says: Saturn was lord of my geniture, culminating, and Mars principal significator of manners, in partile conjunction with my ascendant; both fortunate in their houses, &c. I am not poor, I am not rich; nihil est, nihil deest, I have little, I want nothing: all my treasure is in Minerva's tower [emphasis mine]. I'm interested to see what Tom has to say of this chart, it is an interesting example of both malefics dignified on the most important [or to say, personal] angles of the chart. I would also point out to the twelfth-parts [on the outer part of the wheel]. Saturn's twelfth-part on Ascendant and Mars, and Mercury's on MC with Saturn. It is interesting that Burton described Mercury as LOG to be related to the solitude: Mercurialists are solitary, much in contemplation, subtle, poets, philosophers, and musing most part about such matters.. So, adding Mercury's twelfth part to the LOG [Saturn], and Saturn's twelfth part on Asc with the Lord of the Manner [Mars], clearly shows the picture that this man would enjoy solitariness and would most probably suffer melancholy (notice how Saturn is in Capricorn - cold and dry sign, and recall to Tom's wonderful explanation above), and would spend his own time in reading, researching, applying his own intellect, reasoning and etc [note also Mercury in Saturn's sign]. He died in in his 61 of age. He was found hanged and is assumed that he hanged self. P.S. In my post here: http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... 6350#76350 I've posted his explanation on every particular planet when happens to be Lord of the Geniture. Quote Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:36 am
6 by james_m hi Ile, an interesting read on temperament is available in a book appropriately called 'temperament - astrology's lost key' by dorian gieseler greenbaum. she mentions burtons book and methodology in her book.. it is a great book worth getting if you are interested in this sort of thing. another way of understanding more on temperament is thru the sun/moon phase which is also discussed in greenbaums book. my own thoughts on the difference between the ascendant and the midheaven is that the ascendant has more bearing on a persons temperament then the midheaven.. as a consequence i think burtons mars on the ascendant overshadows his saturn on the midheaven in terms of temperament. perhaps others can comment on how they see it here, but that would be my take.. for another alternative way of getting a deeper understanding of the chart i would look at the sun/moon midpoint for insight into burtons temperament.. this is obviously a 'modern' approach so i will not bother to tell you what i get from this. my solar fire program gives a temperament overview.. here is what it looks like for robert burton. Quote Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:27 am