I tried electing a chart for sending off an application (on-line).
Sat 27 Aug 2005 15.17 bst London
I thought that it looked a good time the 1st house ruler ( jupiter) and 10th ( venus) applying to a conjunction on the MC. and mercury ( ruling 7th-presumably the people who would read it) and moon both making favourable aspects to them. My only doubt was that the moon ruled the 8th- but I though that that matched the nature of my experience sufficiently to compensate.

I correctly guessed more or less when I would get the response ( when the moon was applying to the two rulers) but I didn't get an interview - so what went wrong - was the moon ruling the 8th just too bad or did I miss something else? Unfortunately they did not give me any clue - just a standard response.

I wondered if perhaps the problem is that there is no point in electing the time of submission - perhaps its necessary to elect the start of the application procedure or (more difficult) the moment of deciding to apply

Any ideas/advice?

Hi Amelia,

I am currently compiling an article about the importance of reception, and this chart offers a perfect example of a point I am making. Where you have any contact between your significator and the ruler of the 8th house, you need to make sure that your significator is received into the dignities of the 8th house ruler so that it is protected from the influence of loss and denial that the 8th-ruler signifies. Jupiter isn?t received by the Moon therefore the applying aspect between them can't be relied upon because the Moon is destructive planet in this chart.

Ah. Thanks Deb. That would explain it. Guess I should have checked with you first!!

Feel free to use the example in your article if you wish.

Where you have any contact between your significator and the ruler of the 8th house, you need to make sure that your significator is received into the dignities of the 8th house ruler so that it is protected from the influence of loss and denial that the 8th-ruler signifies.

Now wait a minute! Where does this 8th house stuff come in? We are told to fortify the angles and their rulers, avoid VOC Moon, avoid the Moon in Via Combusta, avoid a combust Moon, check for a positive and benefic translation of light, fortify the natural significators?and now all is lost (an exaggeration, I know) because one?s significator is not received into the dignities of the 8th house ruler if it has contact with that ruler. What about the rulers of the 6th and 12th, which have worse reputations? Aren?t we stepping into the realm of the ridiculous? Just trying to find the other conditions I mentioned is challenge enough, but now we told to look at the 8th house ruler (this is the first I?ve heard of this). Is there no end to it? If we are to look at the 8th and its ruler, surely the 12th and its ruler would be even more important. It looks to me like astrology is just an intriguing puzzle to entertain ourselves with.

Isn?t it obvious that positive electional astrology is probably impossible? This tells me why there are very few electional posts here. Horary is much easier: you get one chart, and you have to work with it. To me this weakens the case for horary just as much as electional. In horary we are forced to be passive and accept the chart we are given. We accept what the chart tells us. In horary we wait to be told if we should do something. In electional astrology we have made a decision to act and are looking for the best time?we attempt to take an active rule by choosing an propitious time, but are shot down by yet another delineation rule lurking around the corner. Electional shows how limited we are in making choices by dragging around the fears and dread that all branches of astrology teach us. Possibly, electional astrology is telling us that we are all being rather foolish spending so much time fretting over this and using it in our lives.

There were ancient astrologers. There were also ancient critics of astrology. Maybe those are the other ancient authors we should be reading.

Kirk it wasn?t a case of having an endless list of things to consider here. And you don?t have to check for everything ? you look at the focus of the chart and the considerations that affect the main significators.

What Amelia took as the promising factor in this chart was the application between the 10th ruler Venus and her significator Jupiter. She took as a secondary factor the application of the Moon, angular on the 7th cusp, separating from Venus and applying to Jupiter.

Although the application between the two main significators looks promising, you don?t get the results of that promise if a destructive planet interposes itself between them because that destroys (or prohibits) the positive potential of the aspect.

This would be the first thing a traditional astrologer would look for. You start off by identifying what other planets get involved in the application and deciding who they are and whether they are assisting or destroying. If they are destroying you know that what starts off looking promising for the querent ends up in disappointment.

The Moon is clearly destroying. It is powerful by angularity but lacks dignity, making it only powerful in its negative effect. It is located on the 7th cusp (the hostile western angle, signifying the opponent) in a sign which is traditionally recognised as debilitating for the Moon (Bonatus: the 6th affliction of the Moon is when she is in Gemini ? 12th from her own sign). The Moon rules the 8th house of damage and loss. If it had ruled the 12th or the 6th that would have been equally applicable, we?re only looking at the 8th because we?re examining the nature of the Moon which so powerfully intervenes between the union of Venus and Jupiter, and the Moon is the ruler of the 8th so we know that its influence is tied into 8th house themes. We decide if that is a good thing or a bad thing. The 8th house is the house of death and loss: it's bad.

The Moon is separating from Venus (the job) and applying next to the sextile of Mercury in the 8th. Mercury rules the 7th ? the opposition, where the Moon is placed. Someone else gets the job because all this happens before Venus gets to Jupiter. The Moon next applies to Jupiter but it only carrying a negative influence all it can do is prohibit the prospects that she thought she had at the beginning.

The point about reception is that traditional texts tell us we have to check for this if a destructive planet is interposing itself in the application. Because that would offer a protection against the harm that the destructive planet signifies, so you would still have some chances. But without reception there?s no chance and this chart is actually pretty clear.

To be honest, I would have read this answer straightaway, just by looking at the Moon on the 7th cusp, ruling the 8th house and applying to Mercury, ruler of the 7th.

There were ancient astrologers. There were also ancient critics of astrology. Maybe those are the other ancient authors we should be reading.

Good idea. I'll meet you in the philosophy forum later

If it had ruled the 12th or the 6th that would have been equally applicable, we?re only looking at the 8th because we?re examining the nature of the Moon which so powerfully intervenes between the union of Venus and Jupiter, and the Moon is the ruler of the 8th so we know that its influence is tied into 8th house themes.

This is what I was hoping you meant in the first post when you wrote:

Where you have any contact between your significator and the ruler of the 8th house, you need to make sure that your significator is received into the dignities of the 8th house ruler so that it is protected from the influence of loss and denial that the 8th-ruler signifies.

So we aren?t really talking about any ol? 8th house ruler? It seems that the important fact here is that the Moon in this chart happens to be the 8th ruler. That makes sense to me as the Moon is so important.

That's it.

Amelia was wary of it from the start and she wrote in her first post:

My only doubt was that the moon ruled the 8th- but I though that that matched the nature of my experience sufficiently to compensate.

Related to this - there are times when you need an application to the 8th-ruler to show the prospect of getting what you want (for example if you want a loan or benefit from someone's will). Wherever the 8th ruler signifies the quesited, or could be descriptive of it - that's when you most need to check for reception. Reception shows you get what you want without being harmed, but without reception it will tend to damage, and the more so if it is an unfortunate planet or the aspect is difficult.

I was interested in how this showed up in this chart because it is what I am currently writing about. My article will be published with the Libra ingress updates anyway and it will explain it all more clearly.