Mark wrote:Ile wrote:

BTW he is not first to use "Vedic techniques" into tropical analysis, or western approach. Abu Ma'shar used Navamsas and Dwadasamsas.

Yes but what zodiac is Abu Ma'shar using? Tropical or sidereal Sassanian zodiac?

Mark

At this point I don't know
What I wanted to say is usage of Navamsas and Dwadasamsas in western tradition.

Ile wrote:What I wanted to say is usage of Navamsas and Dwadasamsas in western tradition.

It might be better not to lump the two together, as twelfth-parts go back to Mesopotamian astrology (and were transmitted independently to western Europe through Firmicus' Mathesis), whereas ninth-parts seem to be of Indian origin (and were transmitted to Europe only in late medieval times through the Arabic authors).

I've run this chart through my software in the Tropical zodiac and I'm not getting the Navamsa positions of these planets in watery signs. Does anyone know how he was calculating the Navamsa?

Martin Gansten wrote:

Ile wrote:What I wanted to say is usage of Navamsas and Dwadasamsas in western tradition.

It might be better not to lump the two together, as twelfth-parts go back to Mesopotamian astrology (and were transmitted independently to western Europe through Firmicus' Mathesis), whereas ninth-parts seem to be of Indian origin (and were transmitted to Europe only in late medieval times through the Arabic authors).

Hi Martin,

My answer, and why I was putting them together was to make it clear to the original ask-er of the question that they were used both in the tradition. The Dodecatemoria has older tradition of usage, and Navamsas, as you said, were particularly used by the Arabian authors, probably transmitted from the Hindus due to the geographical closeness of Khorasan to Sind (Hind) and Hindustan.

Konrad wrote:I've run this chart through my software in the Tropical zodiac and I'm not getting the Navamsa positions of these planets in watery signs. Does anyone know how he was calculating the Navamsa?

When Wulff writes that Moon, Mars and Saturn are in watery Navamsas and Dwadasamsas, I think he meant that Mars and Saturn are in watery Dwadasamsa and Moon in watery Navamsa; because, Moon is obviously not in watery Dwadasamsa, and the Navamsas I haven't check yet. Is Moon in watery Navamsa?

BTW What software do you use?

Good evening,

How well, if at all, do the dodecatemoria and the noviens work as diagnostic and prognostic tools in Western astrological practice using the tropical zodiac of the Northern hemisphere? In my humble opinion this might be a more useful question than their countries of origin.

Another pertinent matter might be the accuracy of planetary positions in antiquity. Before late antiquity, id est after Claudius Ptolemy and the increasingly widespread use of ephemerides calculated using a tropical zodiac and spherical trigonometry, the mean margin of error of planetary positions was, according to ex. gr. Mr James Herschel Holden, about +- 3 ecliptical degrees, double that for Herm?s. This means that the stated dodecatemoria and noviens were more likely incorrect than correct (for non-Herm?s) . The stated confines (average 6 ecliptical degrees each) were as likely as not correct (for non-Herm?s).

By Senator Julius Firmicus Maternus' time, however, both dodecatemoria and noviens should have been mostly correct. According to his standard horoscope form above, Herr Wilhelm Wullf, like J. F. Maternus, included qualitative delineations of each ecliptical degree. This requires very accurate ephemerides and also event times.

To what extent might astrological subdivisions developed before late, post-Ptolemaic antiquity, several smaller even than dodecatemoria, have been, as one often encounters today, apparently a hobby of many if not most astrologers: complex conjecture and speculation?

Best regards,

lihin

Ile wrote:

Konrad wrote:I've run this chart through my software in the Tropical zodiac and I'm not getting the Navamsa positions of these planets in watery signs. Does anyone know how he was calculating the Navamsa?

When Wulff writes that Moon, Mars and Saturn are in watery Navamsas and Dwadasamsas, I think he meant that Mars and Saturn are in watery Dwadasamsa and Moon in watery Navamsa; because, Moon is obviously not in watery Dwadasamsa, and the Navamsas I haven't check yet. Is Moon in watery Navamsa?

BTW What software do you use?

Hi Ile,

I use Jagganath Hora which is extremely easy to use and versatile. It is freeware too.

lihin wrote:Another pertinent matter might be the accuracy of planetary positions in antiquity. Before late antiquity, id est after Claudius Ptolemy and the increasingly widespread use of ephemerides calculated using a tropical zodiac and spherical trigonometry, the mean margin of error of planetary positions was, according to ex. gr. Mr James Herschel Holden, about +- 3 ecliptical degrees, double that for Herm?s. This means that the stated dodecatemoria and noviens were more likely incorrect than correct (for non-Herm?s) . The stated confines (average 6 ecliptical degrees each) were as likely as not correct (for non-Herm?s).

Hi Lihin,

Yes, this is quite the stickler for me too. I have enquired about courses with Sanjay Rath's school. They claim their founder could time events down to the 6th dasa lord (which is a window of a few hours) while they use these same techniques with the modern Lahiri ayanamsa. Surely the techniques their founder was using were used is conjunction with a different method of computing planetary positions and since many of these techniques rely heavily on harmonic charts, you'd expect there to be some differences in their results.

Konrad, thank you on the recommendation!

Back to Wilhelm Wulff.
I'm thinking a lot these days about the techniques he used in predicting the missing girl's death.
After discussing with some people I know who practice Jyotish, I think that he used the Indian techniques but not in a traditional way.
In traditional Jytoish, Dwadasamsa derivation chart is used to show childhood, parents and grandparents; and Navamsa's charts, as far as I'm aware (correct me if I'm wrong) to show the martial life or the spouse of the native and things related to this.
Wulff took them to delineate the type of death with them, and no one can blame him since he got it right, he predicted the death and kind of death, but it is a worthy of notion that he did this through usage of some mixed bag of techniques, not through traditional Jyotish.
Martin Gansten is specialized in Jyotish (if I'm right), so I think he can give more erudite explanation on this.

Regards,
Ile

Ile wrote:Martin Gansten is specialized in Jyotish (if I'm right), so I think he can give more erudite explanation on this.

I'm not sure I am specialized in any particular area these days; I like to stick my nose in everywhere. I do read Sanskrit, though. The only thing I can really say about the Indian subdivisions of the signs is that they are used for all sorts of purposes, often varying from one text to another

damon wrote:http://www.skyscript.co.uk/wulff1.html

Hi
"If, in this horoscope, we look at the subdivision of the zodiac as postulated in Indian astrology, we find the moon, Saturn, and Mars in watery Navamsas (i.e., a one-ninth or forty-degree sector of the zodiac) and Dvadas?msas (one twelfth or thirty-degree sector). And that means a watery grave - in this case suicide by drowning"

thanks

Hi
I am having another look at the chart of the girl cause her suicide with boyfriend seems to make more sense with quadrant houses. You might say she killed herself because of Leo Sun in 8th,but there is no link betwen 8th and 7th or 5th house rulers o lover/husband in WSH,but plenty in quadrant.
What do you make of that?