james_m wrote:hi damon, i try to ignore many of your comments but it's hard to ignore what you're suggesting here.. it would be nice if you took a break from posting, but i doubt that is going to happen.. in the meantime suggesting a collusion between me and mark really is a slap in the face to mark and i and it makes you look like a real idiot.. cheers james

not a collision,the opposite.

Hello Damon,

I see your point and it is a valid point regarding the astrological system used. However this only points to how we have been handed down astrological systems, that we have not yet fine tuned, that we are still trying to find the magic bullet that makes astrology work at least 90 percent of the time.

It is a very good exercise, everyone learns something when reading anothers? astrological delineation. It is very helpful. We are all trying to perfect our trade. No one has yet to determine which house system works best in all cases, the zodiac, etc.. It is very humbling to see the narrow limits of how far we have come, if at all. We are all still testing all these theories handed down. It really does not matter how many charts they use in a mystery chart, deal with the one in front of you and do your best, if wrong we all learn from it, where our thinking went wrong, possibly a belief/interpretations that need to be changed, etc.

It does not matter what system James, or Mark used or even if they chose one to fit their preferred method. Yours and mine and all participating methods should still work, if not then they need tweaking and its back to learning something new that works!!

I understand that but James immediately resorted to name calling.
If he is a friend of Mark he could have helped him.
I dont mean I dont trust Mark,we get along fine,but when someone has 100% hits where nobody had in a century one has to be a bit more demanding regarding rules to make sure,otherwise we cant get rid of those nagging doubts.
I shouldnt have posted my friends comment,he is usually more blunt than I anyway

damon wrote:I understand that but James immediately resorted to name calling.
If he is a friend of Mark he could have helped him.
I dont mean I dont trust Mark,we get along fine,but when someone has 100% hits where nobody had in a century one has to be a bit more demanding regarding rules to make sure,otherwise we cant get rid of those nagging doubts.
I shouldnt have posted my friends comment,he is usually more blunt than I anyway

Please don't say these things. It's an astrology forum. It has no political or social clout, and this idea of collusion is both offensive and way over the top.

I don't tend to bring my 'A Game' to forum exercises - I just don't have the time to sit down and properly work out five charts on top of whatever else (non-forum) I'm working on, but I will at least try to bring up salient points and show my reasoning.

But Mark is a mod here, he did an outstanding analysis, and I do expect moderators to be more thorough than you or me if they're going to participate in these threads. It's a learning exercise, for everyone involved. We're not trying to prove anything to anyone, we use these kinds of games to try to learn to be better astrologers.

If you're that mistrustful of skyscript and the people who volunteer and post here, you may want to find an astrological forum more to your tastes.

Damon wrote:

I myself had doubts because Mark is one of the moderators and could know well the person who posted the charts.

I just got in and saw your post. That comment is totally outrageous.
The implication of your comment is deeply offensive and unpleasant Damon. Its a slur against not just myself but James too.

For the record I didn't receive any help in finding the answer from James or formulate the answer any other way but through workmanlike delineation. Not something you seem very familiar with judging by your posts.

I accept I have had a very good run of success on these exercises over the last year but so have others. Whether this run has been entirely due to my astrological technique or just some random luck who is to say. Possibly a bit of both. I certainly hope astrology accounts for some of this or why bother? This last result was a very pleasant surprise for me but its not as if its the astrological Olympics.

Its hardly challenged the laws of statistics either. Paul the Octopus had a better prediction track record than any astrologer I know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Octopus

The idea I would go to elaborate lengths to effectively 'cheat' is both insulting and faintly ridiculous.

If you care not to believe that I cant do anything to stop you.

Damon wrote:

If he is a friend of Mark he could have helped him.

At the very least I think you owe James an apology. Whether you choose to do that publicly or privately is up to you. Failing that I would ask you to seriously review whether you wish to remain a member of this forum. You really cant make slanderous comments like that on a forum and not expect a significant reaction from those affected.

Bear in mind this is just an exercise to hone our delineation skills. Its not really meant to be an astrological competition with other astrologers. We are are participating to improve our own skills not to win some illusionary prize. We are all ideally helping each other. I certainly found comments by Olivia and PFN's comments very useful myself.

Of course its nice to get the result right. We are all flesh and blood. I probably, got a bit carried away in the flush of success the other day. However, as James said at the beginning the important thing is to have detailed logic for how we reach our conclusions right or wrong. Without that we might as well roll a dice.

Having said all that I do concede the atmosphere here feels a little more competitive of late. I know of at least one member who told me they didn't want to post because they hate getting things like this wrong in public.

I already told James by PM I think the 5 chart model is perhaps a bit too like an astrological assault course. That can look quite intimidating. I recall when Tom first set up the Mystery chart exercise up it was seen as simply a bit of fun where we all chipped in comments on an unknown nativity.

In future I hope we can get back to that kind of lighter less competitive mood.

I would suggest our next exercise be a Mystery chart on one nativity where we have to guess the occupation, personality, and life story of a mystery nativity.

After comments like yours I must admit my enthusiasm for participating in another exercise has all but evaporated. After spending ages slugging it out on these charts your slanderous comments are very upsetting.

I imagine you would be at the vanguard making flippant comments criticising traditional astrology if we all got it wrong. Yet if someone gets it it right you feel comfortable insinuating we are cheats.

Its a no win situation.

I'm out of here.

Mark

I know of at least one member who told me they didn't want to post because they hate getting things like this wrong in public.

Well, I understand them. People in general are prone to admiration, and often forget that if astrologer fail to predict or guess, that doesn't make him less of an astrologer. As Olivia said, we are all on the road of getting better and better, we all learn from the mistakes we made in predictions and guessing like in these exercises.

I think that Robert Zoller was the one who said that good astrologer is one who has at least 75% of accurate predictions. So, if we think that we would get it 100% right in the bag behind us, I think that we are setting very high standards, which is not bad, but can be overwhelming; and that overwhelming is shown in the participation of the threads like this one where we have that inner tension to guess it right.
So if I, as non authoritative astrologer have that inner tension, I can imagine how the authoritative ones feels about this things.

As I said, people are prone to admiration and to disappointments also. Because, when you have admiration toward some person, and that person fail to meet your standards every-time and in every occasion, you get disappointed. It is basic psychology.

I remember that many people were "disappointed" of the thing that several good authorities fail to predict Obama's win on the elections.
I was not disappointed, because I know that the astrologer is not a less of an astrologer when he fails a prediction. Judging astrological factors rightly requires more then an astrological skills and knowledge, even more then experience. Here comes the thing which we nowadays call "Intuition", but also right attitude and right Moment.

Was Regiomontanus less of an astrologer when he predicted that Maximilian I will have 1 son and 3 daughters and he had 2 sons and one daughter?
No. Astrologer is not a god nor someone who without failing can predict the future every time and in every occasion to the very little tiny detail. Good and experienced astrologer can be recognized by several predictions and delineations in succession and not merely on one taken in isolation.

Also, continuously we learn, read, examine.. and in that process we can find ourselves in one state of mind or another. I think that was Albert Einstain's advise to someone that, if it works, you should not change it, rather use it as you used it the first time when was successful [I can't recall the scene rightly].
I guessed 3 out of 4. If I happen to miss the following 3 then this could be alert for me that I'm doing something seriously wrong and I should stick to the procedure I applied in the beginning.
I know that with my enthusiasm for this beautiful Art, the more I learn the more I find my self experimenting with different kind of techniques, and this experimentation costs me "failing" of this sort.
I once heard a saying from a music producer who I respect a lot [who works for Lady Gaga], asked in one interview what kind of plug-ins he uses and when he replied very quickly and spontaneously, the interviewer was kind of disappointed, so this guy answered again shortly with a smile on his face: "Less is More".
And his sound is one of the biggest and richest I have ever heard.

So, approaching these things requires a right mind set of looking at things [delineations, guessing and predictions].

Look how Regiomontanus starts the analysis of the one year old Maximilian I:

"You imposed a great burden on my shoulder Empress most illustrious! demanding from me to write a judgment of the nativity of your son from the stars.
Serious and indeed very difficult is to predict from the stars something certain about the future!
Because he who wants to do this, should have knowledge of many things"
[p.11, translated by Rumen K. Kolev]

In order not to ramble aimlessly, I want to point out that following Mark's posts and writings, one can sense that he is a person with very stable moral nature; so my prediction on this is that he didn't cheat and never did. I can bet all my money on this

And I didnt say he cheated. I said or suggested that with such accuracy,and if we are to find the most accurate system via these mystery charts we better make sure the rules are followed.
You cant expect me to trust people I dont know personally,even the ones I know personally I dont fully trust.That would be naive.
But some people jump to conclusions or want to play hollier than thou with me it appears.
I est my case

Damon wrote:

and if we are to find the most accurate system via these mystery charts we better make sure the rules are followed.

I am not aware of any rules being broken here Damon. So if you are not insinuating James and I colluded together (which I think any fair observer would conclude you were hinting at) or that I cheated what exactly was the point of your post? To become the thread troll? You dont seem willing to take responsibility for your actions here.

This might be a discussion forum but its not wise to share every fleeting half baked thought that passes through your mind.

Mark

I have decided to temporarily lock this thread as I can see it spiraling off topic. I think I am too personally involved here to pretend I am in any way acting as the moderator. Tom is the principal moderator on the traditional forum. I intend to let him see this thread. If he decides to delete any comments (including mine) that is fine with me.

Mark