Hello Ile,

could you please give a short description of how this mixed method is you use?

Thanks

Iris

Good afternoon,

Must whole sign and quadrant house systems be 'versus' rather than complementary?

From late Hellenistic times one has found written horoscopes that used a quadrant - 'Porphyry' - system. Some Hellenistic authors proposed quadrant divisions to evaluate planetary activeness (not 'strength', a much more comprehensive notion), whole signs for topical delineations. This has been suggested also by Dr. phil Benjamin Dykes and works very well at least in my modest practice.

One might recall that, although they measure 30 degrees each on the ecliptic, whole sign places dynamically differ considerably amongst each other due to their unequal rising times, already a significant delineation factor in Hellenistic astrology.

Best regards,

lihin

irisalbus wrote:Hello Ile,

could you please give a short description of how this mixed method is you use?

Thanks

Iris

Hi Iris,

I gave it on all my posts here whenever I delineate some charts

But in short. I would note that certain planet is in 5th sign but 4th division, and I would say that this planet effects BOTH life subjects.

For example, I have Mars in 6?Scorpio in 4th division but 5th sign. 5th division falls at 19?Scorpio, so I use it in both houses. I have a father who worked in army and now works in the police, which is good description for Mars in 4th. But I also learned through experience, that whenever Mars is activated through time lord procedures, 4th and 5th house matters are activated (moving house, romantic endeavors, creativity, inclination toward pleasures and etc.) Now, the 5th house matters are brought merely by Mars ruling it, but I would also say that Mars is in 4th and in 5th as well.

More interesting is the example of my Saturn.
He is in 15?Scorpio, just 4 degrees away from the 5th house cusp.
Renaissance authors like Morin for example, would say that Saturn is in 4th but with his rays touches the 5th. Now we have third kind of approach, using planet's orbs effecting the house cusps. I my self have found this to be true too. Recently I looked at a chart with Saturn 4 degrees away from the cusp of the 3rd house and in 2nd sign. The person had too many Saturnine like experiences on her journeys especially when Saturn is activated through lordship.

But when I look at certain techniques from Valens, like those one for Prosperity, I use WS only. I found this to work better using WS only.

We have great tradition of usage of the divisions and I don't think that sometime in the past, there existed a perfect astrology in which the WS houses were used; while the later astrologies were just a corruption of this, foundational one. I don't think that Firmicus were superior as an astrologer to Gauricus just because he lived so many years prior. Nor I compare Valens and Abu Ma'shar in this way.

This "mixed approach" I learned from Steven Birchfield, and I think he learned it from Robert Zoller. I like it, I have good results with it, so I use it.

Edit:
Another interesting thing of which I was at first reluctant to use, but then found it relevant, and was used by the late medieval and early renaissance authors like regiomontanus, schoener et cetera, was aspect to the empty houses based on mundane divisions.

For example, Here Mars is in 5th sign but 4th division.
From Scorpio Mars does not look to 10th sign Aries, that is, it is turned away. But Mars makes opposition to the 10th division!
So, Mars is affecting 10th house matters through opposition, which brings problems of its own kind.

Now, I would try to be a bit facetious and use a short conversation between the old masters.

Valens would probably say that Mars brings problems because it is 'turned away' from its own domicile, that is, Aries the 10th.

Paulus would say:

The position of the signs unconnected to one another has the numerical interval from 2, 6, 8, 12, and the signs taken in such intervals are also called averse to one another. And so
the stars found in these signs become inharmonious. And sometimes they bring about hostile conditions, sometimes separations and banishments when such a condition has befallen all, whether by parents to children, by brothers, by man and wife, by fellowship, or by slaves and masters, and all resembling these.

And also:

And those neighbouring to themselves have sympathy for one another just as if they were placed in the same domicile, while those signs 6, 8, or 12 intervals away have power just as if they were in diametrical position?

Paulus speaks about signs which are in aversion but has some other kind of 'sympathy' like Aries and Scorpio through their same ruler.
So, even though Aries and Scorpio has sympathy, the base of the sympathy is that of the diametrical position, that is opposition.

Masha'allah would say that Mars is helped to see its domicile through the mitigation of the aversion of which Sun in 7th helps and to which Mars is in square aspect. But, this mitigation is problematic because Mars and Sun are hostile between themselves.
Or again, Sun as almuten of MC is in square aspect with the ruler of MC, Mars.

Morin, Regiomontanus et cetera, would say that Mars is hostile to the 10th house matters, because he aspects the 10th division by opposite aspect.

So, we can see that they all agree in one way or another.
I call this "mixed approach". I combine the testimonies from all of them, and make judgment from here.

Morin and Al Biruni would also say that Venus rules IN 10th, because a portion of Taurus is part of 10th division.

There are no lines in the sky, only in your mind as a theory, but the set of various meanings is possible across borders. One can describe what is with overlap of meanings and topics. Life is not so neat to only have one place where something exists.

I could instead have only 4 divisions of the chart with the same meanings where 3rd, 4th, 5th have to do with everything attached to the home (as one place), 9th, 10th, 11th to do with everything attached to career (as another place), 12th, 1st, 2nd with everything attached to self and 6th, 7th and 8th everything attached to others. This is a bit vague, but it would not be false (angular triads here as invention by Robert Schmidt). It is not necessary to say "one and not the other" unless other indicators say so. The chart itself will tell you how to read it.

When I look at the sky on my birthday at my birthtime it is clear to me the Sun is in 9th house as shown by placidus. The Sun feels strong and i like to be at the beach at this time cause thats when i draw the most philosophical inspiration. As 8th and 7th approach I tend to get depressed or melancholic.
I think the ancients calculated the chart like this.
I have the Sun at 18 capricorn. Since my suntime of birth is 13.38 and 9th house begins at 14.00 then 9th begins at 13 cpricorn,hence Sun is in 9th and rising degree is 13 taurus. This would not require ephemeris or complicated calculations. But it takes the Sun as the most important point and not the horizon

Hello Damon,

first of all, happy birthday

From the few information you give, if Taurus is the rising sign then Capricorn is the 9th sign by Whole Sign houses so the Sun in Capricorn is in the 9th sign not only in the 9th house by the quadrant system you use (if I understand your description well).

Iris

Hello Ile,

Ile wrote:
I gave it on all my posts here whenever I delineate some charts

Sorry I am not that diligent to be able to put together your work style :-)

Ile wrote: I would note that certain planet is in 5th sign but 4th division, and I would say that this planet effects BOTH life subjects.
....
But when I look at certain techniques from Valens, like those one for Prosperity, I use WS only. I found this to work better using WS only.
....
Valens would probably say that Mars brings problems because it is 'turned away' from its own domicile, that is, Aries the 10th.

Paulus would say:

The position of the signs unconnected to one another has the numerical interval from 2, 6, 8, 12, and the signs taken in such intervals are also called averse to one another.

And also:

And those neighbouring to themselves have sympathy for one another just as if they were placed in the same domicile, while those signs 6, 8, or 12 intervals away have power just as if they were in diametrical position?

Paulus speaks about signs which are in aversion but has some other kind of 'sympathy' like Aries and Scorpio through their same ruler.
....
Masha'allah would say that Mars is helped to see its domicile through the mitigation of the aversion of which Sun in 7th helps and to which Mars is in square aspect. But, this mitigation is problematic because Mars and Sun are hostile between themselves.

Thanks a lot, I am still working on coordinating all this. I am familiar with aversion and its mitigation and other configurations, but so far I thought they were applied in WSH and I have always wondered how much they can/should be used "out of context" ie in quadrant houses systems.

Zoidsoft,

I agree with you that life, alas!, does not have its exact lines and even if astrology reflects it (or viceversa, but this is not the theme of this discussion), I think that in order to study a complicated materia it is necessary to start with straight and linear principles, otherwise one soon arrives to New Age style free associations where everything can be/mean anything.
In short: I think one needs solid basis, first, to be able to use it in a flexible way, later. That refers to me, of course, and this is what I am trying to do asking so much around.
So thanks for all the help :-)

Iris

irisalbus wrote:Hello Damon, first of all, happy birthday From the few information you give, if Taurus is the rising sign then Capricorn is the 9th sign by Whole Sign houses so the Sun in Capricorn is in the 9th sign not only in the 9th house by the quadrant system you use (if I understand your description well). Iris

No my AC is Gemini, but using this calculation method it would be Taurus.
Still Placidus seems to have done a good job. Also when I look at the portion betwen Noon and setting zone and trisect it, the Sun also seems to fall in 9th at that time, and not in 8th as WSHwould show

I have found much clarity about this subject in Benjamin Dykes' introductory pages both to "Works of Sahl and Masha'allah" and to "Introductions to Traditional Astrology".
I do not think it would be appropriate to quote entire pages from those books but they are really instructive.

Iris