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Wulff's national horoscopes...?

1 by Geoffrey
I started reading Zodiac and Swastika by Wilhelm Wulff, and was struck by his remarks in Chapter 7 where Wulff reports a conversation with Walter Schellenberg, the German counter-intelligence chief.

Wulff tells Schellenberg that the charts for Hitler personally and the also that of the Third Reich were looking very bad for 1945....

".....Schellenberg replied. "But what about the astrological prospects of Great Britain and the United States?"

"Much the same as the Soviet Union's! To put it bluntly, the constellations of these two nations are extremely advantageous right up to 1947. They reach a peak in mid-May, 1945. Action must be taken quickly if Germany is to be spared even greater misfortunes."

(Wulff is pushing for Hitler to be removed to save Germany. Schellenberg puts this to Himmler, who does nothing - the rest is history.)

Now, although the notion of national horoscopes had been around for a long time, it seems not to have been taken up with serious intent until CEO Carter published his book on political astrology in 1951. This book by Carter was the result of the failure of astrologers to predict WWII on the basis of other techniques such as ingresses.

However, it would seem from this quote that Wulff was ahead of the game here and was using national horoscopes well before most other astrologers were taking them seriously.

The question then, is what national horoscopes was Wulff using for the UK, the Soviet Union and for the US?

Geoffrey

2 by Mark
Geoffrey wrote:
Now, although the notion of national horoscopes had been around for a long time, it seems not to have been taken up with serious intent until CEO Carter published his book on political astrology in 1951. This book by Carter was the result of the failure of astrologers to predict WWII on the basis of other techniques such as ingresses.

However, it would seem from this quote that Wulff was ahead of the game here and was using national horoscopes well before most other astrologers were taking them seriously.
Indeed. An interesting observation.

Geoffrey wrote:
The question then, is what national horoscopes was Wulff using for the UK, the Soviet Union and for the US?
Good question. I wish we knew the answer to that. Although, perhaps the trail has gone too cold to ever find out now with all the keys participants long dead. Still we have a few German members here so you never know.

I see to recall the main German chart being used by Wulff was the 1918 Weimar Republic chart. Interesting as that chart has been almost forgotten in discussions today. However, it did represent the change of Germany from a monarchy to a republic.

Your quite right that national charts did long precede Charles Carter. For example American astrologers in the 19th century were using a version of the 4th of July chart as the' birthchart' of the USA.

I suspect the whole development of national charts as we understand them today actually started in the USA not Britain.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

3 by Geoffrey
Hello Mark

Wulff was actually using the Third Reich chart of 1933 for Germany, which was when the Nazi party gained power and/or Hitler declared the Third Reich. That chart is now defunct, of course.

Wasn't Sibley's 1787 Chart for the USA the start of national charts...?

Geoffrey

4 by Mark
Hello Geoffrey,
Wulff was actually using the Third Reich chart of 1933 for Germany, which was when the Nazi party gained power and/or Hitler declared the Third Reich. That chart is now defunct, of course.
I am fairly sure the Weimar Republic chart is referred to in that piece but have no time to look into that just now. Does the piece just mention one chart for Germany based on the Nazi take over? Could you cite the bit that states that please if you find it?
Wasn't Sibley's 1787 Chart for the USA the start of national charts...?
Have you read Campion's Book of World Horoscopes on this issue? Its very worthwhile reading. Campion suggests Sibly didn't seem to have created an accurately timed chart located for Philadelphia. It was influenced by the ingress chart. Thats a whole topic on its own though I think.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

5 by Tom
Morin sums up the problem pretty well in Book 25 of Astrologia Gallica. He agrees that national charts would be valuable, but also notes the difficulty of timing the charts. At what point, for example (mine not his) was London born? And of course the endless debates over the US chart serve to punctuate his observations.

We have the famous Baghdad chart, which was an election, but an election is just an inception chart cast in advance. It's been used for centuries as an inception chart.

Sibley's chart is another curiosity. While the date and time show July 4, 1776, Philadelphia. It's been assumed the chart is being handed to George Washington and the caricature does resemble him, but I believe that man is wearing a British uniform.

I don't think that, as late as WWII, no one was using national charts, but there were more Ingress charts being used. Then there is the human factor. WWI ended only 20 years earlier. No one in Great Britain or France wanted to believe an another major war with Germany could follow so quickly on the heels of the last one. Carter took the position that the Ingress charts had failed, when arguably, the astrologers, being all too human, failed. Also lets not forget that Carter introduces, perhaps not for the first time, but certainly with his considerable weight behind it, most influentially, the idea of outer planet cycles. That doesn't fit with Ingress charts all that well (although they can be worked in).

But on the other side of the coin, and I've mentioned this before, one French astrologer using Morin's methods with ingress charts did accurately predict WWII. It was not time to give up on them.

6 by Mark
Tom wrote:
Sibley's chart is another curiosity. While the date and time show July 4, 1776, Philadelphia. It's been assumed the chart is being handed to George Washington and the caricature does resemble him, but I believe that man is wearing a British uniform.
You are tempting me to get into this here. However, we already have a specific thread on the origin of national horoscopes. Perhaps you could post there too? I have a few comments I would be happy to get into over there.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7119

I will try and avoid a wider discussion on the US chart here. Just curious why most astrologers generally describe this as the Sibley chart when the surname was actually Sibly?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebenezer_Sibly

http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/25502

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Sibly,_Ebenezer_(DNB00)

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Sibly,_Manoah_(DNB00)

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

Heavy, enduring blows against astrology in Germany

7 by lihin
Good evening,

As Herr Wilhelm Wulff states in his book, the arrest, incarceration, mishandling and sometimes murders of many German and Austrian astrologers by the German government in 1941 until the end of WW2 set back astrology in Germany by decades. Of great importance was also the seizure and destruction or loss of the astrologers' libraries and research papers.

Astrologers who survived were never compensated by the post-WW2 German authorities because astrology was not legally deemed a religion.

Since WW2 astrology has been tolerated in Germany, much like elsewhere, as a form of infotainment with short daily sun-sign columns and the like. Astrology is oft publicly classified amongst various 'esoterica', synonymous usually with non-, at best pseudo-scientific nebulosity. There are astrologers who successfully cater to these tastes and notions.

In my humble opinion astrology has still not yet really recovered in Germany. Works admirably begun by Wilhelm Wulff, Erich Carl K?hr and others have scarcely been continued, let alone further developed.

Best regards,

lihin
Non esse nihil non est.

8 by Tom
Just curious why most astrologers generally describe this as the Sibley chart when the surname was actually Sibly?
We can't spell? Sibly doesn't look right.

9 by Mark
Lihin wrote:
In my humble opinion astrology has still not yet really recovered in Germany. Works admirably begun by Wilhelm Wulff, Erich Carl K?hr and others have scarcely been continued, let alone further developed.
I accept a lot of the best minds in German speaking astrology were lost through persecution during the Nazi era. However, surely another reason for the failure of German astrology to recover after WWII was the perception of it in the public mind?

Its true astrologers during WWII had little option but to assist the Nazis if co-opted into working for them. However, I wonder whether Himmler's clear fascination for astrology and the occult in general didn't do a lot to tarnish the image of astrology in Germany after the war? There also seems to be a popular idea that Hitler used astrologers although there is no evidence for that.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

Reference

10 by lihin
Good morning,

For those particularly interested by the subject of Mr Mark's last post, there is at least one very good, serious book available:

The Occult Roots of Nazism: Secret Aryan Cults and Their Influence on Nazi Ideology

by Professor Dr. Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke. Post-WW2 Germany has with few exceptions preferred to avoid this subject and to restrict analyses to other politico-sociological as well as economic factors. Symptomatic for this situation is that the leading scholar in this area is an Englishman.

Best regards,

lihin
Non esse nihil non est.

11 by Teiresias
Hitler wouldn't have consulted an astrologer for "Operation Barbarossa" which began on a void-of-course Moon. I don't have the information by me, but it is easily looked up.
Beauty is truth, truth beauty

12 by Teiresias
The data for "Barbarossa+ is: 3:00 am, June 22, 1941. Berlin, when the Luftwaffe planes took off; the Moon at 29 TA 7 was just separating from Uranus and in no Ptolemaic aspect.
from Military History Online.com
Beauty is truth, truth beauty
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