Tom and others: there were several chronocrators or time rulers that astrologers of earlier times would pay particular attention to when judging an annual revolution. The term ruler of the directed ascendant and/or hyleg is one, the ruler (or lord) of the year is another. All the Arabic authors I have seen so far, and later European authors building on their works, use 'ruler of the year' to refer to the ruler of the profected ascendant, as has already been said.

Interestingly, a more complex Persian method of selecting the ruler of the year has been preserved in India. It is not unlike the procedure for determining the hyleg. The Indian authors also mention the simpler method of always taking the ruler of the profected ascendant, stating that this is used by the 'Romans' (meaning the Byzantine Greeks), and that it is done using the tropical zodiac. (The inference is that the other, Persian method used the sidereal zodiac.)

I don't know if Morin mentions them- Tom???

If you're talking about profections, he mentions them disparagingly. From the Translator's Preface;

However, he (Morin) begins Book 24 with a lengthy diatribe against what he calls "progressions," by which he means both methods using equal degrees for years or months and methods using the elaborate systems set forth by the Arabian astrologers ... These systems are properly called profections.

Italics in the original

And from the man himself:

Progressions were only devised for one purpose, that with their help the days of accidents might be determined. Moreover, when the human intellect, having forsaken the light of reason, loosens the reins to [accept] fictions, it is marvelous how much it runs riot in these, as is apparent in the doctrine of progressions ...

So he doesn't like them.

Tom

margherita wrote:

For me too profection should be seen before solar return and gives the lord of the year.

Yes profections are very important to traditional technique. I have found them one of the most reliable methods in predictive astrology and they have a lot of scope in rectification work. I asume Morin's rejection of profections was a reflection of his distrust of symbolism in contrast to naturalistic indicators. From what I can see Morin seeks to replace profections with lunar returns which assume a larger significance in his approach.

Regarding profections I tend to work with them whole sign rather than the later idea of 30 degrees. Interestingly Ben Dykes uses the whole sign method himself rather than the approach taught by Robert Zoller found in many medieval and renaissance texts.

Mark

Still, I suppose Morin was sticking to his distrust of symbolism in contrast to naturalistic indicators.

It isn't simple distrust. It is a profound difference in philosophy. Astrology, in his view, was part of nature. If it didn't exist in nature, it, therefore shouldn't exist in astrology.

The Arab authorities were clever and came up with a plethora of techniques based on their worldview and math, but Ben Dykes points out the difficulties this approach can present:

Possibly one should borrow from horary practice and make her [the Moon]a co-significator in all revolutions just as in questions. On the other hand, this advice seems almost useless, given that the Persian suite of techniques has already got a profection, a Lord of the Year, a distribution and its partner, and Ascendant of the year and its Lord, transits, pairs of firdariyyah Lords and ninth parts. How does the Moon fit in here?

He left some out. For example Abu Mashar uses three(!) ascendants (nativity, revolution, profection) and their Lords. There is an old gag that if one did everything Abu Mashar suggested in the delineation, it would take an entire year to complete the job. There is more than a little truth in that line.

Morin however limits himself to what is in nature. If we put his bombast aside, there is something compelling about his thinking.

From what I can see Morin seeks to replace profections with lunar returns which assume a larger significance in his approach.

I don't see it that way. Morin presents us with a hierarchy. Nativity, directions, solar return, lunar return, and transits. If memory serves Lily takes this approach as well. Once the revolution is cast, we can cast all the lunar returns for the year and see which one(s) most closely interact with the solar return and that will be the month where the promise is realized. The transits pinpoint things to the day. In reality, things rarely work out this well.

Also Morin is adamant (is he ever any other way?) about casting the revolutions of the Sun and Moon for the location of the native at the time of the revolution. If one doesn't know where one will be six months from now, how does one cast the chart? He doesn't say.

Still despite his near incoherence on selection of the Lord of the year, his approach has at least as much validity as any other and we get to dispense with some of the minutiae.

If this discussion is going to continue in this vein, perhaps we ought to take it to the traditional Forum.

Tom



Good idea, I nearly missed your posts re. Morin up here.

Matt

Hi Tom and others

Sorry not to have thanked you before now but other things have overtaken me. I will read and digest all these posts and get back to you, again thanks.

Dolly

I just casted my 2013 SR. Having no idea on how this is used, i came too across Discepolo's work at http://www.solarreturns.com/Solar_Returns_book.htm#17

I was also surprised to learn that there is a 33-year cycle to the natal ASC' repetance.
I am soon having my first 33-year ASC return, and I at first glance I thought of the SR to be brillant, but then..:

Ascendant of Solar Return in the First natal House; stellium of Solar Return in the First House of SR; Sun of SR in the 1st House of SR; and/or Mars of SR in the 1st House of SR.

What happens if you have 3/4 of these symptoms?? The examples he refers to are really bad.. Meanwhile, some worse-than-the-rest years I can recall, have had my natal MC as SR ASC.

Do you think it's gonna be that bad? Or should I book the next flight to Australia??

Thanx a lot to whomever bothers to share his/her opinion.

Georgia

I have used Solar Returns since 1975, specifically precession-corrected S/R's. While I sometimes work in the Sidereal framework I most often use p.c. Tropical S/Rs and derived charts. I'll explain.

Use of the natal chart is important, but one has to see the natal chart, for predictive purposes, as representing adopted or developed characteristics based on our life experience --- and not to treat the natal chart as only being one's potential.

Next, the p.c. S/R represents several things: 1) it provides a "theme" or promise that often pertains to all/most significant events in the following year. 2) the p.c. S/R is a cyclic chart, as Cyril Fagan pointed out. Any S/R's MC will shift some 90 degrees from the prior year's S/R and the Sun will therefore shift some 3 houses in chart position. This, being a regular and repeatable fact, suggests a cycle. This is important for the next step.

As a cyclic chart, we can use Fagan's progression method to advance the chart MC over 365.25 days some 450 degrees, +/_. The daily interim charts, which Fagan called Progressed Sidereal Solar Return charts or PSSRs can be seen as simply progressed daily angles charts when using the Tropical zodiac framework.

As has been noted, the S/R is a transit chart within a cyclic format, the ordering/placement of the angles makes it more than a transit chart. The approach I use, based on Fagan's practices, is to emphasize the angles and planets at/near the angles for interpretive purposes. This approach can utilize Ebertin's COSI planets-in-combination (natal, S/R, transits for any given day) keyed to the angles to provide an interpretation.

The progressed daily angles charts portray the moving angles from the S/R angles and those moving angles contact transiting planets, natal planets, solar return planets and natal angles periodically over a 9 month 2 week cycle. At the end of this period, the MC returns to the prior S/R MC position and continues onward to the next S/R MC position.

Angles contacting angles have an interpretive meaning of some significance as I point out in my new book which was released just this last week. (Personal Prediction, ISBN 978-0-615-63033-5) The daily charts, also as transit charts with the added enrichment of a cyclic orientation can be used (based on using planets at the angles) to both time events and describe attitudes, actions, situations. This approach to prediction makes good use of Ebertins COSI combinations as those often portray those same attitudes, actions and situations.

As Carter pointed out so long ago, the angular houses are action oriented while the following houses tend to reflect feelings and thoughts. This may mean that one could use S/Rs and daily charts with non-angular houses or cusps to explore feelings or thoughts ---- but that would not contribute well to what most of us consider to be "prediction."

The afore-mentioned 9 month and 2 week cycle is important in this system of using three unified charts (natal, S/R, daily charts). When the S/R MC reaches by daily progression its opposition point after 4 months and 3 weeks, some form of a "challenge" is often associated with the angle reversal. A "conclusion" or "finishing" can be found when the cycle is completed after 9 months and 2 weeks. This concept can be extended to the MC and Asc. angles progressing to and opposite the natal angles as well, bringing another layer of challenges and conclusion into the mix.

For those who work with converse charting, or for those into spells, one can use a day which lies 9 months and 2 weeks ahead of the next S/R to engage in some meaningful, contributing and symbolic effort so as to "shape" the meaning of the next S/R cycle. I haven't engaged in this myself in many years but an associate has with reported success.

All in all, the unified chart-linking of the natal (potential plus developed character), Solar Return (yearly theme and cycle marker) and derived daily angles charts (timing and event definition) can be effectively welded together as a predictive tool. This form of "cyclic" charting, I suspect, is not widely practiced or appreciated, but it has proven very effective for me.

This is how I use Solar Returns. Dave

When you study the theme of the year which will be shown in a solar return, you must look at the correct solar return, the one that corrects for precession, like dadsnook has pointed out. Otherwise you are not looking at the real SR.
You can do this by the method he suggests if you insist on using the tropical zodiac, but you can also cast the SR in sidereal zodiac, that gives the right SR.

The theme of the year is shown by the closest aspects (most potent within 3?) to the SR angles and the tightest aspects (0-3?) in the chart, with tight aspects to luminaries being of big importance.