Hi Deb',
I'd very much like to have a go at finding clues as to this girl's location, but before I do I need to confirm the rising degree with you.
According to my SolarFire v5 the ascendant for 23 Aug '05, 2.41 pm Toronto - 47n36, 65w39 - is 00* Sag' 09', which differs from the version you offer by 3 degrees. I need to know which is right, because obviously my version presents a significant consideration before judgement.

Cheers,
==
Pete

Hi Pete,

I've checked this, and I still get this ascendant for that time. However, my co-ordinates differ from yours. I have Toronto, Ontario, Canada as 79w23 / 43n39. The time zone used is EDT + 4hrs.

I've also double-checked this on the AstroDienst site and that agrees with the ascendant I have used.

Good to hear from you,
Deb

According to my SolarFire v5 the ascendant for 23 Aug '05, 2.41 pm Toronto - 47n36, 65w39 - is 00* Sag' 09', which differs from the version you offer by 3 degrees.

Well I dunno, I've just checked the co-ordinates in 'Starlight' and it gives Toronto as 43n40' 79w25, and an ascendant of 3 Sag' 39', and this matches yours, Deb. I have absolutely no idea why SolarFire presented those coordinates, but at the end of the day we at least have a consensus.

As to the girl's possible location, there are so many variables but the main candidates seem to be Jupiter in Libra on cusp 11 and the Moon in Aries in 5th. Lilly tells us that Libra indicates high up - in an elevated position and

"in the fields it represents ground near windmills, or some...barn or outhouse, or saw-pits or where Coopers work or wood is cut. Sides of hills, tops of mountains..and sandy, gravelly fields."

The Aries Moon also indicates:

"sandy, hilly ground", as well as "where sheep or small cattle feed...a stable of small beasts, lands newly taken in, or newly ploughed, or where bricks have been burnt..."

Both sigs are succeedent, which suggests not too far distant.

The mention of "land newly ploughed" and "where sheep or small cattle feed...a stable of small beasts" suggests farmland to me. I would take the direction from the Moon's house, the 5th - and suggest north-west. Further, Jupiter is in Libra, which is west.
As a final thought: I wonder if "windmill" might be a clue?
It's the best I can come up with at this late hour, but it might provide fruit for further thought.
===
Pete

Hi Pete,

Maybe you have a dodgy copy of SF. When I did the chart a couple of days ago I got the same as Deb. Just checked it again and got the same. Then I realised I was using the ACS atlas that often comes with SF now. But I just checked and even the old SF altas (I have version 5) has the same co-ordinates that give 3 deg. Hmmmm. Don't know. The co-ordinates that you quoted were further north in New Brunswick I think.

Take ruler of the 5th house because it is a child ? but that is if it is a child and not an adult.

Deb, which house or planet signifies a child who is not a child? i.e., either a person of 18 or older? (Or do you use the 5th until they're 21?)

In mundane charts, the 5th house has general signification over children - but if someone is 18 or over I wouldn?t consider them a child would you? In a horary the querent?s view of the situation determines the signification. Obviously if the question is about your own children, they are always your ?child?. My mum still introduces me as ?her baby? even though I am 43! (I used to hate that, but the older I get, the more it pleases me )

In general signification, Mercury represents children before adolescence; Venus is young women, and Mars young men.

Hello Deb and all,

I found this post intriguing as it caused me to wonder when we can exactly consider someone to no longer be a child, and therefore not represented at the 5th cusp. Surely if a person is 18, we can no longer consider the person a child, but then what if they still live with the parents and it is a parent that poses the question? It would still be the persons 'child' in this respect, and as Deb has mentioned, we are still our parents 'babies' at any age. So perhaps if the question concerns our own offspring, then the 5th cusp would represent them whatever their age?
As for children in general, when not our own, maybe they should only be represented by the 5th cusp when they are at an age before they have reached their first Jupiter return at around 12 years (if I am correct), hence heralding the end of proper 'childhood' and the beginning of 'adolescence' in an astrological sense. This is just an idea I had. So therefore when the inquiry concerns ones own children, at any age, they are represented by the 5th cusp always. If the question concerns a child in general, then the 5th cusp only represents that individual when at such an age as to have not yet been expanded to a greater stage of development by Jupiters return. Thus astrologically, they are a still a 'child', a 'junior', and still young enough to qualify for the 5th cusp representation. I just thought it might be an interesting idea. It will be interesting to see what you all think.

Mercury is young children, Venus young women and Mars young men. So I wonder, could we ascribe the Moon to mature women and the Sun to mature men, or perhaps Saturn and Jupiter would be more appropriate in this respect?

Regards,
Draco

I have one thought to add on this chart. I looked at the Moon?s past aspects since it entered Aries. I did this so I could see the flow of events that lead to this point. I added in what has already reasonably been explained.

Moon trine Saturn ? ruler of the 3rd house, dangerous car ride
Moon opposite Venus ? the missing part??
Moon trine Mercury ? contact with the attacker, perhaps the boyfriend
Moon conjunct the North Node ? Moon?s point of darkness, a bad sign
Moon sextile Neptune ? she was deceived somehow
Moon opposite Jupiter ? a showdown
Moon trine Pluto ? a power struggle

So the part that has not been commented on is what is the role of Venus here. Venus rules the 11th house, so it could be the girl?s friend. Venus is also in her own sign and is positioned in the 10th house and is moving towards being conjunct Jupiter. Venus is by far the most powerful planet in this chart, both essentially and accidentally. It?s the only angular planet in this chart and it?s as if it is jumping out at us to tell us something. Could it be that she has a friend, also a woman, who knows more than she is letting on now, someone who may have been scared or intimidated herself (Moon opposite Venus) but who at some point will come forward and lead to the finding of the missing woman, either dead or alive? (Venus applying to be conjunct Jupiter)

And my, oh my Deb you are good. I looked at this chart first right after it was posted, tried to turn it like tried to as well and threw up my hands. Just when I start to feel confident about my ability you show how much I have to learn. Thanks for sharing your gifts and hard work with us all.

Just a few more thoughts before calling it quits for the night. I looked at antiscia and contrascia, and found that the only one here is that the antiscion of Venus is conjunct the 4th house. Maybe that ties into the idea I presented above where Venus will lead to the discovery of the missing woman, though the 4th house suggests that it is her grave that Venus will lead them to.

There was also a contrascion of Neptune to Mars, but I ignored that.

The fixed star Markar is also conjunct the 4th house cusp. It gives

honor, riches, fortune, danger from fevers, cuts, blows, stabs [can be operations nowadays] and fire and a violent death. (Robson).

But to be fair, half of the stars in the sky seem to be related to a violent death.

The 7th house cusp is conjunct Mirfak, the brightest star in Perseus. Though the orb is a little bit wide, about 1 ?? I?ll throw it out there. It is a bright star at magnitude 1.9 and it?s latitude puts it up near Gemini.

When prominent in a natal chart it is said to denote adventurous individuals, but also those who are less than honest in their dealings with others.

Also: Sorrow, woe and distress.

The Sun is also conjunct Regulus, which if culminating, which it technically is just past:

If with Sun, Moon or Jupiter, great honor and ample fortune.
With Sun: Power, authority, great influence over friends, honor and riches, but violence, trouble and ultimate disgrace and ruin, sickness, fevers, benefits seldom last. (Robson).

Well, the unfortunate but not unexpected conclusion has been reached in this disappearance.

On Tuesday, Alicia's next door neighbour, 31 year old Daniel Sylvester, turned himself in to the police. Early Wednesday morning police began searching roadsides in a rural farming comunity about an hour northeast of Alicia's home. Human remains have been found. The neighbour has been charged with 2nd degree murder.

The neighbour, according to his lawyer, was suffering great remorse. He was upset that Alicia's family hadn't gotten closure, and that there was the possiblility that someone else may have been investigated and accused of the murder. Brilliant

Well, the unfortunate but not unexpected conclusion has been reached in this disappearance.

On Tuesday, Alicia's next door neighbour, 31 year old Daniel Sylvester, turned himself in to the police. Early Wednesday morning police began searching roadsides in a rural farming comunity about an hour northeast of Alicia's home. Human remains have been found. The neighbour has been charged with 2nd degree murder.

Pete wrote:

The mention of "land newly ploughed" and "where sheep or small cattle feed...a stable of small beasts" suggests farmland to me. I would take the direction from the Moon's house, the 5th - and suggest north-west. Further, Jupiter is in Libra, which is west.
As a final thought: I wonder if "windmill" might be a clue?

Not bad, Pete! Although you said North-west, and it seems to be North-east...

Not bad, Pete! Although you said North-west, and it seems to be North-east...

Thanks T,
yes, I consider that I only got it half right. Had the police been following my lead they wouldn't have found the poor girl's remains.
The Moon's sign - Aries - suggests east, so if I'd used that, and the Moon's hemisphere - north - I would have been spot on I suppose.
Something to remember in the future....
===
Pete