Someone a while ago mentioned the concept of 'overcoming'.
I understand that a planet can be overcome -dominated- by a planet 10 signs away from it. What's not clear:

- is this only the case when there is a dexter aspect between the two as is the case with Mars in Aries and Saturn in Capricorn, or can it also be the other way round? Or in other words, must one look at who is applying to whom?

- is this more like one of those obscure practices you sometimes find, or is it actually put into practice when delineating a chart?

I looked at M.Jackson's chart (Square between Moon in 10, and Saturn in 7) and found it quite fitting both on the topic of career/reputation and the public, as well as what it tells us about his parents (night chart)

Yuki

hi yukionna,

any 10th house planet - and you need to understand the symbolism here as i mean 10th house planet to 1st house planet as a type of square aspect to another planet symbolism -the planet in the upper part of the square is in a dominant position to the other and 'commands or 'overcomes' it in a symbolic manner.. same deal with your example - saturn in cap to mars in aries (10th sign to 1st sign - you've given a simple and good example), as saturn is in the commanding position. i don't think it is an obscure practice as i think of these relationships all the time!

Thank you James for the clarification.

Just a few loose ends:

- must it be an aspect within the moieties, or can it be whole-sign as well?

- is there another name for this? I've been searching the web like a maniac, and nothing came up.

Yuki

hi yuki,

there might be another name for it but i don't know what it is.. it reminds me of derivative houses a lot, which is an approach used in indian astrology more.. i think it can apply via whole signs in a general way.. as an example any planet in capricorn has this commanding relationship to a planet in aries.. on the reverse side of it, i think the aries planet can offer a supportive role in the relationship as suggested by 4th house, sign connection to capricorn continuing with this example. i am not sure how much this is used, or the exact way that traditional astrology would have used it though..

Since Indian astrology has been mentioned, in some Indian techniques this same "dominating" role exists for planets in a 4:10 WSH relationship. It's called samdharmi: "together-working" or "same duty", and occurs when a planet A takes priority over B to give the results you'd logically expect from B. As in the example you've given, it's the dexter square which is normally considered to dominate (i.e. the aspect of 10 in zodiacal order takes priority, normally, over the aspect of 4, and not usually VV, except in particular cases: I was told the idea is that the 10th place planet is "chasing" the one in front, which is "running away"). So in the example here, Saturn can take over Mars's job (there are a few conditions), but only in particular circumstances can Mars take over Saturn's.
So many things in Indian astrology seem to be rooted in Hellenistic, or at least seem to have a common source, but much seems to have got changed somewhat as it was passed on.
Here's a link (the English is not very good, takes some working out at times):
http://www.kas-astrology.com/uploads/5/ ... sson08.pdf
Graham

tnx Graham. I red the text, but as I'm completely unfamiliar with the vedic terminology, I didn't really understand what it was saying.
What you write here:

"together-working" or "same duty", and occurs when a planet A takes priority over B to give the results you'd logically expect from B.

sounds a lot like pushing power to me, but that's only possible when planet A is in the dignity of planet B and applies to B. This 'overcoming' principle is, as far as I understand it now, independent of what dignity the applying planet is in.

Anyhow, you seem to be of the opinion that generally only the dexter aspect goes, so Mars in the 1st, Saturn in the 10th, but not the other way around.

I'm afraid I don't know what "pushing power" is, but this 4:10 rule in Indian astro (at least in the Krushna system I referred to, but I don't think it's alone) has nothing to do with rulerships, as far as I know - except that the taking over of the job of another planet can also be by virture of a natural 4:10 relationship.
The 4:10 relationship means that the planets are in some sense interchangeable, but in principle it's the planet bringing up the rear (i.e. in dexter square = in 10th place) which dominates (here, Saturn can take the place of Mars, not VV). It doesn't necessarily have to be in any particular house or sign, but it does have to be stronger in terms of a point scoring system (called ashtakavarga - but other criteria of strength, such as in own sign, could be experimented with, I'd think). Venus and Saturn are fully interchangeable by sign (natural 4:10, as Aquarius is 10 from Taurus, Libra is 10 from Capricorn). Sun can replace Mars (Leo 10 from Scorpio) and Mars can replace Moon (Aries - Cancer). Otherwise it's by position (on condition of adequate strength also). Sorry if this all sounds like gibberish.
Graham

No, it's not gibberish...I appreciate your thoughts.

But this one:

Sun can replace Mars (Leo 10 from Scorpio)

would be a sinister square, wouldn't it? Mars is slower.

Or am I completely missing your point here?


I actually meant pushing nature, which happens when planet A is not in one of its own dignities, it's in one of planet B (major) dignities.
The applying planet is the 'pusher' and by pushing it hands over responsibility to the 'pushed' planet.
But the pointing system mentioned in the Vedic text seems not to be about dignity, so it can't be anything related to this.

You're right in traditonal Western terms if speed is considered, but this "natural samdharmi" is about position of domiciles, not placement and speed etc of planets in the chart. In Indian all aspects are dexter - always in zodiac direction. So we'd talk of an aspect of 4 or an aspect of 10. The planet occupying 10 in the 4:10 relationship is the one that take over the job of the one in 4, whatever their speeds (there other rules involving speed, but this is not the place, etc)
This is also true by domicile position for Venus and Saturn mutually; Mars can also replace Moon, and Sun can replace Mars (Aries is 10 from Cancer, Leo is 10 from Scorpio). This has nothing to do with speed or placement, except as much as placement can give strength (the dominating planet also has to be strong enough). As you say the point system for strength (ashtakavarga) is not based on rulerships, but on the relative placements of all 7 planets and ascendant, different for each chart and for each whole sign house in each chart. But since this system is supposed to reflect strength, I don't see why we should't experiment with this 4:10 rule more simply, by using strength-by-rulership to qualify, or whatever point-scoring system we're familiar with.
Graham

Hi Yukionna,

I'd like to give you a practical example of my understanding of overcoming. Firstly, here are the two charts:
The point of the two I want to look at are the Moon. In Both, the Moon is the closest aspecting planet to the ASC and, in my observations, the most close aspect usually determines behaviour of the native along with the ASC lord. Ignoring the ASC lord for a moment, we have the Moon in its own triplicity in Pisces. The first native is the stereotypical lunar person: lazy, unambitious, a dreamer, one who walks around imagining life as it could be, introverted and introsepctive. There are of course other traits, especially because of Mars, but this Lunar behaviour is obvious.

Now the in the case of the second person, we could expect similar things but this person is serious, sober, hard-working, preferring perceived realities instead of imaginations and is organised. They actually work in management roles and are in their element directing events in a microcosmic manner. There are still Lunar qualites such as a love of the sea, sea-life and scuba-diving but the more "other-wordly" elements are subdued and controlled, a perfect arrangement of Saturn dominating the Moon. Mercury also has some influence but I feel the fact the Saturn aspect is applying makes it more obvious and powerful.

The first chart also has Mars and Jupiter dominating the Moon. Mars makes this native highly competitive and prone to outbursts of anger though the watery sign rising and the reception by watery Venus in the ASC help make this native unfocused and dream-like in their most relaxed state. As I said, this is something lacking in the second chart due to the domination by dry Saturn and the lack of reception.

Hi Konrad,
tnx for joining in. You know, it was you who first mentioned this concept to me, so I guess it's all your fault lol

I have some questions still.
In both examples the overcoming planet(s) are slower, so we have dexter aspects here. Is this a coincidence, or does it indeed have to be so?

I've learned that in an aspect between two planets, the slower one dominates. So that would have happened anyhow (although I suppose it does depends on the slower planet's accidental strength.)
So what's the difference between overcoming and just any old aspect between a slow and a fast planet? Had I not known anything about this, I'd still have said that this person's connection with Mars (1st chart) will be the cause of a rather explosive temper. I might not have included Jupiter though, as the aspect is not within the moiety, and you do do that, so I suppose that's one difference then. Any planet in the 10th dominates any planet in the first, regardless of whether it's an aspect or not....

Also, I don't entirely agree with your discription of a typically lunar person. What you write seems to me more in ligne with a Venus in detriment on the AC. Lazyness, slugishness and all that. To me a Moon is at its worst emotionally instabile, can't settle down, a vagabond, things like that. Prone to moodswings. And Venus' aspect to the AC is as close as the Moon's, so you might just as well say that this is a typically Venusian person. However, the very tight trine with essentally weak Venus does influence the Moon a lot of course, so maybe that would make it more passive as it would otherwise be.

In the 2d chart there's the square (overcoming) of Saturn. Apart from making this person quite Saturnical, serious, hard working etc., as you wrote, how does this influence the Moon? Because it's still an affliction right?
Saturn is the sect malefic, which is good, but not essentially strong otherwise, so it should really harm the Moon. If this overcoming principle is about a planet overriding the 'character' of the other planet, there shouldn't be much lunar energy be left? Just trying to wrap my brain around what exactly does it do. Sorry if I seem a bit dimwitted. It often takes some time for me to really understand.

Anyhow, nice examples, tnx

Yuki

Hi Yukionna,

no, I don't think so, I read it as any planet in the 10th sign of another. The other angles are important too, but the 10th moreso. I looked into the root of the words used in the older languages a while ago to get a sense of what it actually meant but I can't remember the findings very clearly and I am not at my computer right now. I will try to look out my notes when I get back.

As for the orbs, it depends on who you use as a source. I use Sahl, and he recommends to use double the orbs that Lilly and other later authors give. I find this works much better.

Lilly in his descriptions on the Moon lists him to be an "idle person, hating labour" when afflicted as he does with Venus, but for me Venus would also show a more lewd and plaesure-seeking side. I agree, the combination doesn't help especially in watery signs and the person having a partly Phlegmatic temperament.

As for problems in the 2nd chart, it is hard to say right now as the Moon rules the 8th and is exalted ruler of the 5th and 6th. This person is so far in good health, isn't yet dead and is too young to be thinking seriously of children. The Moon is determined towards siblings and her relationship to the immediately younger one is terse and strained, with power struggles and periods of silence. While the youngest looks up to the native as an example of how to behave. I don't know if Saturn is too bad here for the native herself since Saturn has dignity in the ASC and is in-sect without any real afflictions. There are still Lunar manifestations and events, they are just really dominated by a Saturnian colour. It should probably be noted too that Saturn is int he 10th from Fortune, so he is going to be especially active in his significations.