Hi Konrad,

Thanks for your comments. Some useful insights there.

I've often wondered about this and other things such as drug addiction and other addictions like sex. Timing it would be another issue as well. I'd think the triplicity lords would be useful.

Yes your quite right about addictive behaviour being another factor to consider too.

I'd think for mental health, looking to the sections on demon possession and utterances from the gods as being useful if we do look to traditional texts but looking at Rheotrius here, he just gives almost Indian Yoga-like combinations, most involving Saturn and Mars afflciting Mercury without the benefics intervening.

Thanks for reminding me about Rhetorius. Ptolemy obviously has a fair bit to say too. Although things like 'demon possession' would presumably only cover conditions like Schizophrenia or perhaps epilepsy.

I'd think temperament would also be a good place to start. I'd be interested in getting some charts together and figuring some things out.

mmm I confess I am not a great fan of medieval temperament theory. Not least because of the numerous ways it can be weighted. If looking at all I prefer to use Ptolemy's original method myself.

Muhammad Ali (http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Ali,_Muhammad) is one who comes to mind as he has developed Parkinson's Disease which was diagnosed when Saturn took up the times in the Decennial system. Saturn is afflicting both the Moon and Mercury (the former of whom is also the ASC and Fortune lord in a Sidereal zodiac) and also the Lot and the ASC itself. I'm sure you''ll agree that Saturn will be most harmful to Ali's health because of this and his elevated position at night.

I haven't worked with many hellenistic predictive systems like decennials, or zodiacal releasing. Definitely on my 'to do list' soon. Of course Saturn is all over Ali's tropical chart natally and Saturn is Lord 6 in the tropical chart.

Just with a quick search of Astrodatabank using "Parkinson's Disease", I came across this, the chart of Kenneth More (http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/More,_Kenneth). He also has Saturn afflicting both the ASC and the Moon and Mercury as well as Fortune. If we take the 9th house to be a place capable of business, the Decennials beginning from the Sun also have Saturn taking up the times when this man was diagnosed (the late 70's as far as I can make out from here: http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/46460797).

Decennials again. Ok I better get my act together and take a look! I think you raise a very interesting point about Saturn coming into time periods. Especially with degenerative brain diseases like Parkinsons, Alzheimers, or Motor Neurone disease. This issue is not just academic for me as I have a close relative that has recently been diagnosed with Parkinsons disease.

Firstly, these tend to affect older people so this hints at a Saturnian link to begin with. This contrasts to conditions like Schizophrenia and Bi-Polar that tend to first manifest in teenage years or early 20's. Secondly, these conditions tend to develop very slowly but effectively shut down the mind's control over the body/central nervous system (Parkinsons and Motor Neurone do anyway). So this hints at a Saturnian influence on the Moon and Mercury.

Thanks you have given me quite a few useful ideas to follow up in my own research.

Mark

James_M _wrote:

an emphasis on the mutable cross might be suggestive of mental issues...

I am looking at potential links to the modes.

Ptolemy does state that Gemini and Sagittarius are linked to epilepsy and seizures. This got be wondering about the mutable signs in relation to bi-polar conditions with the constant shifting back and forward associated with these signs.

I have noticed quite a few cases of people with Schizophrenia or Bi-Polar with a retrograde Mercury. However, this is clearly not a consistent indicator. For obvious astronomical reasons most people with these conditions will not have a Rx Mercury. Equally,lots of people with Mercury Rx will not have these mental health issues. Still it is something I am researching. Especially, when Mercury lacks dignity.

Its common to see communication and mental activity linked to Mercury and more instinctive mental processes linked to the Moon. However, Ptolemy states that the brain is ruled by the Sun. So its worth investigating this too.

From the limited amount of charts I have seen hoarding conditions seem linked to Saturn and the fixed signs.

Ptolemy gives more focus to the actual phase of planets rather than their sign.

Mark

as i was saying to a few members privately - i am reading a book that i like called 'thinking, fast and slow' by Daniel Kahneman..

i was trying to tie a basic idea in his book to an astro image and wondering if anyone else might like to give it a try. i think it has some practical applications to this issue of mental health in so far as it connects with the mind in some way, or the simple way that kahneman goes about breaking down an approach to thinking.. it might be similar to left brain, right brain type labeling.. much of the first part of the book details what he refers to as system 1 and system 2.. from wikipedia :

"Two systems

In the book's first section, Kahneman describes the two different ways the brain forms thoughts:

System 1: Fast, automatic, frequent, emotional, stereotypic, subconscious
System 2: Slow, effortful, infrequent, logical, calculating, conscious

Kahneman covers a number of experiments which purport to highlight the differences between these two thought processes, and how they arrive at different results even given the same inputs. Terms and concepts include coherence, attention, laziness, association, jumping to conclusions and how one forms judgements."

i simplistically broke system 1 and 2 down into system 1 - the moon and system 2 - mercury.
i don't know if this does either planet/body justice, but i am tossing it out to get some feedback in spite of the fact neither planet may fit neatly with this simple breakdown on the thinking process.. if this seems like too big of a divergence from the immediate topic at hand, i will understand if you want to skip this post of mine too. i suppose i like the idea of subconscious type thinking for the moon and conscious thinking as represented by mercury, although some of the other words that go with system 1 and 2 may not fit properly.

caveat - i mostly find myself responding to system 1 type thinking, maybe because system 2 requires too much effort, lol.. one other quick thought has to do with the moons nodes as having some bearing on this conversation we are wanting to have on mental health issues.. graham left a good link to rahu and ketu earlier today on the sid forum that some might enjoy reading..
http://www.astrocounsel.us/articles/?p=241

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow

Hello everyone.

I?d like to share some thoughts regarding the Alzheimer disease.

The Alzheimer/Dementia are diseases of the old age and relate to memory. So, I think that apart from mercury, the 4H and its lord state are indicative: IC is the end of one?s life, meaning his late years.

To prove this, and initiated by the fact that I?ve had a close experience on it (an aunt of mine died of it), I did a quick research in Astrodatabank under the Category: Diagnoses_:_Major_Diseases_:_Alzheimer's/Senility

This is mercury?s placement by sign out of a sample of 56 records:

Taurus 8
Capricorn 8
Scorpio 7
Aries 6
Sagittarius 6
Aquarius 5
Virgo 4
Libra 4
Leo 3
Pisces 3
Gemini 2
Cancer 0!!!

Interestingly, cancer, the sign associated to memory, scored zero: it seems the cancerian mercury is in peace with the past..

Most of the sample cases had Saturn in 4H or aspecting L4 or in 12H or L4 in 12H or Mars/Uranus/Pluto in 4H or Mars/Uranus/Pluto aspecting L4.
I suppose that this may apply to many other nativities that didn?t end up with Alzheimer, but I still think that the 4th house has its part in this disease.

You see, I think that that aunt of mine wanted to forget: throughout her life she saw all her brother and sisters die one by one from war time to present, and at the same time she was the type of person who didn?t show her grief. She had as well mercury in Taurus, conj Venus on Algol.
I don?t know her birthtime.



**by the way, I am thinking that maybe Dali's chart is worth looking at, as far as the general theme of this thread is concerned

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Dali,_Salvador

There isn?t going to be much discussion of these states/conditions/syndromes/disorders, as we understand them now, in the traditional literature as most were only identified / labelled in more recent times.

However we can safely assume they all existed, or mostly did before the late 19th century. For example., it?s mooted by some Mercury fillings cause ?brain damage' , or vaccinations Autism, Junk food and sugar Attention deficits, etc. All contentious!

Depression for example would have been referred to as, melancholy, sadness, apathy, lethargy, etc.

This was Greene?s initial ?cookbook? for it back in the 80?s.
Prominent #Cap#Sco
Harsh aspects between #Sat#Plu and #Sun#Mon
Harsh aspects between #Sat #Plu and #Mar
Harsh aspects between #Sat and #Ven
#Saturn in the water houses

Some of these behaviours have been linked quite directly at times to the Outer planets.

For example, a Schizophrenic can have cognitions such as aliens are going to come along and purify the human race; this is seen as a Uranian manifestation, by some. It fits with the idea Uranus is the planet which talks about cerebral detached improbable utopias. How would this behaviour have been discussed in the 15th century, or how could it be without Uranus?

As Mark said in the first post, the DSM categories are controversial. That being said, an expert on schizophrenia, E. Fuller Torrey, speaks of mental illness on a spectrum of thought and mood disorders. Schizophrenia, OCD, and autism are on the thought end of the continuum while bipolar and depressive episodes are mood disorders.

Astrologically this makes me think mercury and moon are involved. The two cases I have of schizophrenia both have mercury in cancer with an afflicted moon. One of these is John Nash, the subject of the movie "A Beautiful Mind". He is a gemini with a mercury in cancer in the 12H and a moon conjunct mars in aries. The other case is a cancer sun and mercury with a moon in aries conjunct uranus.

Two bipolar charts have moon conjunct uranus, moon opp uranus respectively.(the latter also square saturn). The more severe case of bipolar is the moon conjunct uranus with a mercury conjunct saturn in aquarius. The milder case has a mercury in gemini in the 12h-- I always felt this person had a better understanding of his condition. Like John Nash, he said he just got "bored" with being insane. He is also a gemini.

Neither of the two schizophrenics has alzheimers, both are old and stable.

As an aside, E. Fuller Torrey is concentrating his research on the theory that toxoplasmosis is implicated in many cases of schizophrenia. Toxoplasmosis in humans comes from the common house cat.

DonnaChang wrote: an expert on schizophrenia, E. Fuller Torrey, speaks of mental illness on a spectrum of thought and mood disorders. Schizophrenia, OCD, and autism are on the thought end of the continuum while bipolar and depressive episodes are mood disorders.

that is interesting and it sounds like it might help define it better astrologically..

DonnaChang wrote:One of these is John Nash, the subject of the movie "A Beautiful Mind". He is a gemini with a mercury in cancer in the 12H and a moon conjunct mars in aries. The other case is a cancer sun and mercury with a moon in aries conjunct uranus.

my simplistic thinking suggests a hard aspect between mercury and moon is more potentially problematic.. john nash has mercury and moon in square brought closer together via the ascendant/pluto conjunction. it looks like this on a 45 degree wheel.

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DonnaChang wrote: Two bipolar charts have moon conjunct uranus, moon opp uranus respectively.(the latter also square saturn). The more severe case of bipolar is the moon conjunct uranus with a mercury conjunct saturn in aquarius. The milder case has a mercury in gemini in the 12h-- I always felt this person had a better understanding of his condition. Like John Nash, he said he just got "bored" with being insane. He is also a gemini.

Neither of the two schizophrenics has alzheimers, both are old and stable.

As an aside, E. Fuller Torrey is concentrating his research on the theory that toxoplasmosis is implicated in many cases of schizophrenia. Toxoplasmosis in humans comes from the common house cat.

stanstar on the horary thread is offering the birthdata for his grandson which conforms with your examples of bipolar here - moon opp uranus. his chart also has moon mercury in a hard aspect - 46 degrees apart..


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Hi James, thanks for responding.

The mood/thought description helped me think about things astrologically, like you. I think it is so interesting that, although bipolar disorder is primarily a mood disorder, the extreme form of mania is psychosis, a thought disorder. So the mood, or moon if you will, influences thought, or mercury, and the reverse. Self-defeating thoughts are implicated in depression, which is often treated with cognitive therapy. Interestingly, depressed people have been shown to have more accurate views of reality. "Normals" seem to have an inflated sense of their own importance . I wonder if astrologically depressives have a weak jupiter along with everything else.

hi donna,

i always think saturn when i think of depression.. perhaps a weak jupiter, or lack of fire, or weak fire planets might contribute to this as well.. it is challenging to want to look for astro signatures when we are aware of how important it is to consider the whole chart.. finding a single solution astrologically to define certain types of mental health issues would be nice, but i doubt it is going to happen.. and, even if we do see something in a chart that is confirmed by the person, or people wanting to help the person who is 'unhealthy' astrologers don't seem to have much knowledge about what the answer is to resolving the health situation. for that we need people that are knowledgeable on that and it seems to fall outside the realm of astrology. i suppose i think astrology is good for some things, but not for others.. i do think it would be great if society took advantage of what astrology has to offer though!

Hi all, nice discussions here!

I have a free afternoon today, so I will ramble a bit on the issues that are discussed here.
I want to add something to the discussion of Mercury in Pisces/Sagittarius, before I get to the discussion of mental illnesses.

[I am currently experimenting with Hellenistic astrology terminology, but I will put the Latin equivalents in brackets for the sake of clarity].

One interesting example of having Hermes [Mercury] in the Archer [Sagittarius] is Ben Dykes.

He is certainly one of the very few translators [alongside Schmidt] whose translating style I admire.
I mean, you can?t say that a person with weak Hermes would have such a sharp reasoning power, organizational skills to give tons of references to other works, to compare passages, etc.
I don?t have his birth time, but I found somewhere that he is born on 1st of January 1972.
So according to this date he has Hermes in the 18th portion [degree] of the Archer and Zeus [Jupiter] in the 23rd portion of the Archer. According to the medieval astrology tradition, this is the so called ?pushing of nature?. Hermes is pushing its own nature, and Zeus is giving him ?reception?.
But even more so, Hermes is in its own confines [terms], so according to the Hellenistic astrology tradition, it is in its own chariot, and hence, conducive to business even if it chances to be under the beams of H?lios [Sun]. Hermes and Zeus are not maltreated by any malevolent planet [Kronos {Saturn} is in the Twins but in the 1st portion of the same, so I don?t think that the diametrical opposition of this kind, by sign and when Hermes and Zeus are already dropped off, i.e. separated, would affect these two planets negatively].

So I think that we must apply the big picture when we investigate Hermes particularly, not only its position by image [sign], but its phase, reception if there exist, is Hermes maltreated or bonified, etc.
In this particular example, Hermes is bonified by Zeus, that?s for sure. Now to add to this if Hermes and Zeus possess some good place in the horoscope, this could make a really good Hermes, but as I said, I don?t have his full chart.

Furthermore, according to Cardan, Sel?n? [Moon] governs the grammarians, or those who learn grammar. Hermes governs those who learn geometry and arithmetic. So Hermes has more to do with calculating, reasoning, putting the logic into work, and Sel?n? has to do with the word, with spreading and sharing [Sel?n? has to do with the messengers too]. I think that for a grammarian you need both these in good position. Ben?s Sel?n? is in the Crab [Cancer] according to 12:00PM for Minneapolis [assuming that he is born there].
Sel?n? stays in the Crab the whole day, so he has it in rulership also. Because of the quick speed of course of Sel?n? I can?t judge if it is maltreated by H?lios or Ar?s [Mars]. Ar?s is in the 4th portion of the Ram [Aries], and H?lios is in the 11th portion of the Goat-Horned One [Capricorn]. So, I would surely say that she is widely separating [already dropped off] from Ar?s but I am not sure if the separation from diametrical opposition from the H?lios is of such great number of portions or not. If he is born early in the morning it can be that the dropping off from diametrical opposition with H?lios is of smaller amount of portions [5-6].

So if Sel?n? is not maltreated and in rulership, and Hermes is in a such a bonified position with Zeus and in its own chariot, we can see that the thing that Hermes is in the Archer is of little ?harm?, at least for someone?s reasoning powers, logic and organizational skills of the mind. Also, Zeus and Hermes are morning risers, they are oriental from H?lios and according to some, they are its spear-bearers, which accentuates them furthermore.

It was said in the first years of the revival of traditional astrology, that planets in debility promise more then they can deliver. While this can be true that?s for sure, I am not so sure that this can be true in all cases. I mean, a planet can be bonified by reception, by aspect from a benefic planet or be in a good place in the horoscope, it can also have a good phase in relation to H?lios, so all this could add to the beneficence of a certain planet and its expression.

To get back to the discussion of the mental illnesses.
Bonatti says:

"Of illnesses, he [Mercury] naturally signifies mental illness, Manic-depressive behavior, pusillanimity by magnifying little things, horrible imaginings, lack of peace of mind and doubt so that sometimes he will seem mindless. And if that planet to which he were joined were well disposed, it signifies the good quality of the soul and if evilly disposed, the evil quality of the soul?.

So, again here we can see that it is highly important to which planet Hermes [Mercury] is joined, and is it well or ill-disposed [himself or the planet to which is joined. Remember now Ben?s Zeus how good is disposed]. Hermes has to do with imagining power, mental pictures, and psychologists tell us that these things are part of almost all mental illnesses. Bonatti was not a psychologist, but from his words, we can see that he is highly qualified for being a psychologist, or the one who deals with the psyche. Aren?t the astrologers ? old and new ? some sort of psychologists?

It is yet another discussion of whether the source of these imaginings, mental pictures are provoked in the psyche itself by some unknown - to us - things, like childhood memories, bad experiences, or they are imprinted by the demons or evil spirits as the religions and occult sciences tells us. This is a discussion for the Philosophy section on this forum, so I will skip it.

According to the medical definition on Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

SCHIZOPHRENIA: a psychotic disorder characterized by loss of contact with the environment, by noticeable deterioration in the level of functioning in everyday life, and by disintegration of personality expressed as disorder of feeling, thought (as in delusions), perception (as in hallucinations), and behavior?called also dementia praecox.

Look now again, how similar the explanation of Mercury?s illnesses that Bonatti gives, is with the modern definition of this disease:

"Of illnesses, he [Mercury] naturally signifies mental illness, Manic-depressive behavior, pusillanimity by magnifying little things, horrible imaginings, lack of peace of mind and doubt so that sometimes he will seem mindless."

This is impressive. So, for these things I would look for maltreated Hermes [Mercury], whether by enclosure [besiegement] by malefic planets, applying to some badly disposed planet, being under the beams of H?lios and in a place where Hermes has no lordship, being in a weak place, especially the 12th! etc. The more testimonies, the serious would be.

obsessive?compulsive disorder: a psychoneurotic disorder in which the patient is beset with obsessions or compulsions or both and suffers extreme anxiety or depression through failure to think the obsessive thoughts or perform the compelling acts?abbreviation OCD; called also obsessive-compulsive neurosis, obsessive-compulsive reaction.

Again, we have similarities with the explanations given by Bonatti.

Now, Mark asked a wonderful question. Namely, how can we make a difference in the subtleties of these ?disorders?? I think that here comes the practice in question. Practice of applying the astrological principles into the examination of a significant amount of charts with such diagnoses.

Here is what Bonatti says about the illnesses of Sel?n? (Moon):

?Of illnesses she signifies epilepsy, contortions of the face, and those illnesses which pertain to paralysis and especially particular (paralysis), especially those affecting the tongue, lips and eyes. And she signifies commotion of members, which frequently happens from some illness caused by the cold and humid, such as in the phlegmatic. And she signifies the quality of the soul for if she were joined to a good planet the quality of the soul will be good; if to a bad planet, bad."

So, again here we have the joining factor applied. Namely, to which planet Sel?n? is joined, and in which state that planets is.

Let me now try to imply all these things that have been said, in to the first chart to which I ran into searching astro databank and the word ?schizophrenia?.

I came across this chart:

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Res ... enic_43996

So, I would first check the state of Hermes. I can see that Hermes is in the 27th portion of the Scorpion, so in image of Ar?s. I can also see that it is in the confine [term] of Kronos [Saturn] and is dropping off Kronos inside of 3 portions through a diametrical opposition, which is really important.

According to Ibn Ezra:

?The separation of the Moon from a planet signifies what is past; and if should be separated from the conjunction or aspect of a fortune, good was present, but if of a bad one, evil?.

Masha?allah:

?Therefore, whenever any stars regarded each other by a lesser number of degrees, they judge the regarding to be effective. If they and the aspect cross beyond, there will be a shaking?.

The word used here is quassatio which according to Latin dictionaries means ?violent shaking?, and the word comes from quass? (?shake repeatedly or violently?). In his comments Ben gives some useful insights. He says that another word used in this regard [of separation] is ?neglectio? from which English ?to neglect? comes. It is interesting that the faster moving planet as a carrier of the activity, is somehow neglecting the planet from which it is separating, and is turning its focus onto something else. From this we can see that the separating aspects are not non-important at all, or non-effective, as was thought earlier, especially not if the figure or separation is inside of 3 portions.

Greek term used for this concept is ?aporroia? or ?aporre?? which has a meaning of falling off like an apple from a tree [again a metaphor of shaking], or like streaming from, that is, in a more metaphysical language: emanating from a source.

Now, if this emanating from a source is an emanating from a malefic planet, what the result would be? The shaking taking place, or the emanating from Kronos [in this particular example] in an image governed by a malefic planet is not a good thing, the planet is still distressed by the diametrical opposition with Kronos. Hermes is not visible, it is technically under the beams of H?lios and Hermes is not in any of his dignities. So, Hermes is maltreated in a several ways here.

Furthermore, Hermes is the Lord of Spirit which is in the Virgin or the 8th topical Place in this chart. According to Valens, Spirit has to do with the intellect and having it in the idle place, while its lord is maltreated is not a nice thing.

His mental problems began after an incident while he was 15 years of age:

American schizophrenic whose dementia began at age 15 after a harrowing experience on a mountain climbing expedition mid-August 1957. He was left hanging, suspended from a guide rope between the expedition leader below and a companion above when the leader lost his footing and fell from the ledge. Help arrived six hours later after the two had abandoned all hope of rescue. Shortly after this misadventure, Paul's parents began to notice odd behavior patterns.

Do you recognize Ar?s activated in this case? Dangers, heights, climbing.. In his 15th year Scorpion and Ar?s are activated, so indirectly Hermes too, as he is in the image of the Scorpion. Ar?s? dwad falls in the Virgin alongside Hermes, on the Spirit. So I am starting to see a pattern here.

The thing is that Ar?s and Scorpion are activated in the 15th year, and this is 14th birthday, which would be from November 1955 till November 1956, if I am right?! But in this period of time, Ar?s is also activated through partnering in Fird?riyyah to Aphrodit?. Ar?s took over from Aphrodit? on 17 August 1957, and this matches his experience which happened in ?middle ?august? according to astro databank.

The thing is that in this particular example, the dementia began after a bad experience, so it is probably not fitted for investigating innate potentials of problems with the mental faculties. After an injury even the greatest mind can suffer mental problems. But I can certainly see a pattern here, where Hermes is maltreated by Kronos, and has another malefic planet, namely Ar?s as its lord and final say, while both these planets through dwads fall onto Spirit [has to do with intellect] in the idle 8th Place.

So the question that is arising here is whether the chart shows mental illnesses after an incident?

I would notice the pattern of Ar?s and Hermes through dwad being in the Virgin with Spirit, and I could notice the connection between Ar?s and Hermes on many levels, but how could we announce such an injury beforehand? I guess this is a matter of experience of getting through a lot of similar charts, or similar issues. However, it is interesting that in that year, the profections came in the image of the Bull [Taurus] and Sel?n? is here, the Lord of the 6th image that pertains to injuries and accidents. In this same image is Kronos who is Lord of the Lot of Injuries in third degree of the Goat-Horned One. Ar?s is handing over to the Fortune in the 6th image, etc. The position of Sel?n? and Kronos in same image is of particular importance because they are mutual destroyers, the first one ruling the Fortune and the second one the 8th from Fortune ? the deadly place. So they being activated in same year, one could assume that some sort of a danger would take place. The oppositional rays from Zeus giving reception to Ar?s in the 6th image of the Revolution ? the Fishes, saved him, in my opinion.

OK. So I thought that I would find some example by picking randomly on astro databank, but it seems out that it would have been better if we find some example where there is no injury involved. I don?t have more time at the moment, so will came back probably these days with some other example.

Edit:
Actually, the Greek word for this particular configuration [Hermes - Kronos] is parallag? [transposition], and here is Schmidt's astrological explanation of the same which seems very insightful:

A more human meaning of parallag? is "perturbation", as in a madness or frenzy of the soul. It seems that in the abrupt exchange of their relative positions, one of the planets at least is thrown into confusion. This tells us something about the astrological nature of the diametrical figure.

Charles Carter mentions as signs of insanity Moon in 12th or 3rd, in evil aspect to Mars in 3rd and Uranus aspects to Mercury
Planets in 3rd seem to be important

Ile,
thanks for your post.. it is always fun to read what you have to share.

here is the same chart on a 45 degree wheel highlighting some of the midpoints. i also wonder if connections to the ascendant have some relation to this topic.. everyone seems in agreement that mercury and the moon have great bearing on a persons state of mind, but i am going to close suggest connections to the ascendant will also have an important part to play as well.

it would be nice if there was a standard method to know a persons state of mind. i don't think there is. in this particular chart i include the planet neptune.. i think the whole chart ultimately matters. in this example one can see the moon and mercury placement landing on the sun/neptune midpoint, and of course the saturn/mars midpoint.. i think midpoints are a lot like arabic parts/lots..


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