Mark wrote:James_M wrote:

so i think astrologers are going to have to accept divergence and variety in the use of house systems..

..., and zodiacs, sign rulerships, aspects, etc etc etc!

I think all we can honestly do is set out our own position and what makes sense to us and why.

Its nice if other people agree but usually its more interesting and stimulating to have a sincere debate and disagreement. I remember Deborah Houlding once saying she only genuinely debated with people she liked. Ideally, thats the way it should be although it can be difficult to live up to that kind of model approach. As the art is traditionally ruled by Mercury its hardly surprising we are a fickle lot.
Mark

I wholeheartedly agree!! I do love a good debate!! But friendly, with respect for all!!

Could someone please be so kind and post a link to the mentioned Jupiter charts by Ile? This is a big board and searching is so time consuming.
Tnx

Yukionna wrote:Could someone please be so kind and post a link to the mentioned Jupiter charts by Ile? This is a big board and searching is so time consuming.
Tnx

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... 6&start=45

About a quarter of the way down.

Sorry Yukionna, didn't think to put the link up, yes it is hard finding a particular thread your looking for. Thanks Konrad!

Hello James, Mark and all others who are interested in this.

Ile?s example of the two women with Jupiter, is more of a philosophical question for me.

It is that: Whatever your belief system, your God, Fate, Universe,: If he/she/they wanted the second woman to have the same wonderful relationship, that second Jupiter would have been firmly ensconced in the 7th.

I realize those who use WSH and utilize Ptolemy?s 5 degree orb, will find the second Jupiter in the 7th in an angle, the sect issue, as well as RX issue. However the fact remains, the second women?s boyfriend is nowhere near the first?s, the difference is huge in their lives.

So even if the second Jupiter were in sect, and direct, I still believe she would have the same outcome of a lower class boyfriend (no benefit of marriage), due to I would keep Jupiter in the 6th, with Placidus. To me that IS the big difference of the 6th and the 7th (angle). That is precisely the difference what one would expect out of the 6th house as opposed to the 7th. So philosophically, I would miss that the second Jupiter is in the 6th, if I used WSH. Yet in other cases I see on the forum, it bears fruit. I am still pondering that one.

We can use the theory of sect, RX, 5 degree orb, or a different house system to explain it, but we really do not know, which one of these is what is causing that effect and stark difference in their lives. We can manipulate house systems, use the 5 degree orb, etc., we all come up with the same actual circumstances of what the actual life reflected. Which is really odd, and if this were a scientific experiment, it just would not fly, odd that it does.

As an example, clients and friends who ask when they will get a job or about their careers. I always know and it has born out to be true, that if their sun is in the 6th when they get the job, it is one of a subservient position, terrible bosses (not trained themselves), menial, boring job, just a job not a career. I have seen this happen enough times to start believing it. Anyone else have that same experience?

To me that is the big difference in a cadent and angular house. In the mystery chart now that Tom put up, I find it incredible that EVERY house in that person?s chart, the ruler is angular, except the 3rd. Pretty much he/she is in charge of their lives in every area of it, except the 3rd. Quite unusual, can?t wait to find out who it is! They could really be successful at what ever they do, in my opinion.

MorningSun wrote:Sorry Yukionna, didn't think to put the link up, yes it is hard finding a particular thread your looking for. Thanks Konrad!

No problem Morningstar, you were in the heat of a discussion...

So even if the second Jupiter were in sect, and direct, I still believe she would have the same outcome of a lower class boyfriend (no benefit of marriage), due to I would keep Jupiter in the 6th, with Placidus. To me that IS the big difference of the 6th and the 7th (angle). That is precisely the difference what one would expect out of the 6th house as opposed to the 7th.

You mean ruler of 7 in the 6th, or generally cadent houses?
From your next text it seems that you consider any planet in the 6th weakened, and I know that it is generally considered that way, but I often wonder though:

As an example, clients and friends who ask when they will get a job or about their careers. I always know and it has born out to be true, that if their sun is in the 6th when they get the job, it is one of a subservient position, terrible bosses (not trained themselves), menial, boring job, just a job not a career. I have seen this happen enough times to start believing it. Anyone else have that same experience?

I have Jupiter ruler 10th in its domicile in 6. I have always had the job in life I wanted to have since early childhood, have found it very rewarding most of the time, and no, I didn't get rich, cause it's not that kind of job. But that doesn't matter, because I don't care much for material goods and as such don't need much money to feel happy and secure.
So in the sense of realizing the affairs of the house, Jupiter has been quite capable of doing so. I've had some nasty health problems due to 12th house Moon, but haven't need hospitalization so far, and I think that's due to Jupiter. Not much else in my chart that offers protection.
So in terms of how well a planet can express itself in a cadent house,: I'd
say that depends on how you define success.

I must say though that I'm awfully tired today, so maybe I'm completely missing your point, in which case I appologize.

Hello Yukionna,

Thank you for your feedback, it is quite interesting, particularly with Jupiter ruling the 10th in the 6th. I very much appreciate you sharing that. Real life events and actual examples are so very helpful in fine tuning other observations that one makes. And yes, I did mean cadency vs. angularity.

The other point you mention is that you are very happily so, in the positions you have had or hold. Yes, I have noticed it is more geared to the material things in life that show a marked difference. And as you say, I have also noted that many of the people are still very happy, but odd as you say that also, as many others I have observed. Of course there are a lot of other factors involved as we all know.

Thanks so very much for sharing that, very enlightening!

hi ms,
your 537pm post - that is all cool.. that is how you see it.. i gave an example on that same thread of a jupiter retro and in the 6th according to placidus - 7th via wh signs that they did quite well with regard to marriage.. they married a university prof and while that might not be the same as a billionaire, it still isn't all that bad.. jupiter in pisces ruling the 7th, but in the 6th according to placidus and retro.. like i said before, astrologers will have to accept divergence in all of this and that not all astrologers are going to agree on a house system or on the best way to interpret planets based on houses.. cheers james

Hey James,

All very good points, however both cases jupiter has some dignity, yuki's rules 10th and your example jupiter in domicile ruling 7th. Obviously different circumstance . As you know, all of the techniques and observations are always being honed and refined, the more examples and feedback one receives. I question all of it all the time, and always keep an open mind. I know i am lightyears away from thinking i am some expert, pretty good but far from expert. I should have added that when the transiting sun was in their 6th house. Even if natally they had potential for a good career. That i have seen many times.

this person i mention with jupiter in pisces in placidus 6th has a lousy career.. they have a masters, but as far as career is concerned, it is very poor..

maybe you'd like to start another thread focusing directly on this topic? what we are discussing has no longer any connection with 'overcoming'! cheers -

Yes you are right! No need to start another thread, and of course other factors were considered. Thanks for the additional info!! Always interesting.

I have a chart here with the following positions:

Saturn 7 degree Capricorn 5th house
Mercury (R) 0 degree Aries 8th house
Mars 0 degree Cancer 11th house

Mars is overcome by Mercury, which is itself overcome by Saturn. Both Mercury and Mars are accidentally weakened by their position on the 0 degree of their resp. signs. Mercury retrograde, which weakens it further.
Would you say Saturn is dominating both? And how would that play out? Saturn is the sect-malefic and in its own sign, not determined toward bad houses, oriental of the Sun, so almost a benefic. Might that mean that the affairs of 5th, 8th and 11th shouldn't be too difficult, due to Saturn's dominance over a peregrine Mercury and its essentially weak dispositor Mars? (all other factors aside off course)
On the other hand, we are talking about squares and an opposition here, involving at least one ill dignified malefic. Any thoughts?

And, as an afterthought, would you also take into consideration that the square from Mercury (which is separative due to its retrogradation) and the opposition from Mars come from Saturn's sign of fall and detriment respectively?

Yuki