Tom
I'd noticed that Mars was in detriment, but as I learnt my first astrology Indian-style, detriment is not recognised. Maybe it should be. But my point about Mars on the sidereal forum is that it's angular, an accidental benefic for Cancer ascendant generally by ruling a WS trine and and an angle (as it does for Leo too), and especially in this chart where it is in a particularly strong and benefic combination (placed in an angle, fully aspecting H10 which it rules, and also 11, job earnings, and 7). And Saturn, Jupiter, NN and Mercury also aspect 10 - lots of "influences".
I think I'm right that for some astrologers (maybe Richard Houck, if I remember, or maybe it's an Indian thing) the power of the aspect can be quite different from the celestial state of the planet, and terrestrial placement can also over-ride celestial.
Graham

Graham F wrote:

Just by the way, the chart layout in SF I like best (as I wrote to Paul in another thread, and James agreed, and Paul as well I think) is the Equal house option - simply because it puts the ascendant in the normal place on the left, horizontal and makes the angles etc easier to read. Morinus does this automatically even when "Whole Sign" is selected. In SF I usually use Equal and Uni2a or Uniextra4 wheel styles. But it might be nice to use the wheel called "Zodboth" for the forum, as both tropical and sidereal are on one chart.

That will teach me to take requests.

Equal is no problem. I will remember that in future. I just thought as you used whole sign you would actually want it. I see your point about displaying with the ASC-DESC axis though. That would be really nice. I wish SF did this for WS houses. I usually, display to astrologers in my group in Equal but have to explain why I am not using Equal houses!

Afraid I am having problems displaying any other chart format so I doubt I can show what you are asking for. My SF seems to crash when I try to bring up other chart styles at present. Must be a bug somewhere. I dont seem to have Zodboth chart option. Frankly, I suspect most astrologers prefer to see the chart in their chosen zodiac rather than a mix of the two.

Mark

Just deleted an error where I said Mars ruled 6 sidereally - sorry, it was too late last night, it rules 5 and 10 and occupies 4. In Indian astro, it has full aspects of 4, 7 and 8 (in zodiac direction), i.e. here, on houses 7, 10 and 11. The sinister square to the ascendant does not count as a full aspect, but I'd agree with others here that it does count (for the Indians, I think it would be a 75% or 50% aspect). But I'd say that a benefic Mars aspecting in 4 and aspecting 7, 10, 11 and 1 should be helpful to a successful carerres in the corresponding domains.
Graham

Konrad wrote:

I wouldn't say Mars is weak, he is being received by a dignified and angular Jupiter (in his triplicity and bounds). He might produce ruined things eventually according to his rulerships (the 5th particuarly since the Sun is so well-positioned) but weak is a bit of an exaggeration.

Here we are in another weak vs strong debate! I just dont think essential dignity is so much about strength anyway. Its telling is more about how smoothly a planet expresses its nature in a sign. Although I guess if your focus is predictive based on things like time lord systems the idea of strength vs weakness is more justified to describe time periods.

I certainly agree there are mitigations here such as being received in Jupiters triplicity and bound. Mars is also in sect.

Mars is strong though because of its angularity. However, being in detriment adds a general level of discomfort for Mars in the sign opposing its domicile.

However, contrary to what Graham said Mars is forming a WS square not a trine to Cancer from Libra. I think this square is more difficult in the sidereal chart as Cancer is the sign of fall of Mars. Still, the partile square from Jupiter looks quite protective as it is the exaltation ruler of Cancer.

He might produce ruined things eventually according to his rulerships (the 5th particuarly since the Sun is so well-positioned)

Why just the 5th? Wouldn't this also apply to the WS and quadrant 10th which Mars rules?

I'm not finding planets in detriment that big a deal if they are received anywa, nowhere near as bad as being in fall.

Ok. I do sometimes think the medieval tradition went completely overboard in writing off planets in detriment or fall. As I said I see this more as a qualitative rather than a quantitative issue.

Yes on balance I think fall probably is harder to work with. However if they have mitigations like sect, triplicity, bound , house placement and aspectual connections even planets in fall can operate well.

The Greeks didn't create detriment into a formal debility like fall. However, there are numerous references to planets opposing their domiciles as bad. Surprising the Indians didn't pick that up.

Mind you the Greeks also gave a lot of focus to planets opposing their bounds too. Not many people look for that but I am finding it very useful.

Mark

Hi Tom,

It is a good hint that subject is still living. I dont know about others but it keeps me on track.

From the last post I want to amend following (due to the fact that he was born in 20th century and still living in 21st century)

Previous Post

Horatio wrote:

He has interest in occult and paranormal but can not become an astrologer.

Whenever, he had Saturn transiting the sign of Pisces he experienced 'Paranormal' or took interest in occult.

Amendment

He has interest in exo-biology and paranormal but can not become an astrologer.

From 1994 to 1996 mid he experienced paranormal.

Logic:

Saturn in Pisces in 8th house is neutral. It is retrograde hence, it is not neutral and becomes strong. Trine by Jupiter, Saturn becomes 'Good'

Addition:

During the current transit this person would loose his credibility because of his interest in Occult.

Reason:

Transiting Saturn in Scorpio, gives a backward square to Sun (fame) and also trines the natal Saturn in Pisces. On one hand it is tarnishing natal Sun and on another hand it is activating 8th House Natal Saturn.

For some reason, I can not apply three layers of Transit and am only using Transits of Saturn.

Mark wrote:

contrary to what Graham said Mars is forming a WS square not a trine to Cancer from Libra. I think this square is more difficult in the sidereal chart as Cancer is the sign of fall of Mars.

I didn't say that, I said

Mars is an accidental benefic for Cancer ascendant generally by RULING a WS trine and and an angle (as it does for Leo too), and especially in this chart where it is in a particularly strong and benefic combination (placed in an angle, fully aspecting H10

The trine is between domiciles Scorpio and Cancer. The square between domiciles is between Aries and Cancer. The square to Cancer and the opposition to Aries by placement is indeed from Libra (an angle). I've quoted a classical text about this configuration in my answer in sidereal forum. As I said there, I was using the generally accepted Indian approach that it's the planet involved and its role in that chart, not the type of aspect, that counts (a square from a functional benefic is better than a trine from a malefic, etc)

Graham

I'd noticed that Mars was in detriment, but as I learnt my first astrology Indian-style, detriment is not recognised.

What I don't know about Indian astrology would fill libraries. In Western astrology Mars in this chart is essentially strong (in domicile) and accidentally strong (angular). I applied western rules to a sidereal chart mostly as a curiosity. But in that case Mars switches to essentially weak while maintaining accidental strength. IF that doesn't work out the same way in Indian astrology, so be it. For this reason we need to be clear where we are coming from so that readers understand what writers mean

I don't want to change the direction of the thread, but the question, "How weak is detriment anyway?" is a good one. I've wondered that myself.

The challenge then is not so much to determine the two careers, although if anyone wishes to take a shot at it, do so. Rather it is to find things in the chart that might demonstrate a level of success in two unrelated areas.

Why I am not surprised to see the Moon involved in people who have changed their careers?

I have intentionally not read the previous comments of the members of the forum in order not to influence my thought direction, since I really like these exercises of our reasoning/intuitive astrological skills.

The first thing I notice is that Moon is applying toward Mercury very closely by Trine, and is translating Mercury?s significations up onto the MC which is the praxis, our actions and what we do, what for we are known, or what is our ?profession?. Mercury is in good zodiacal shape, so it is the Moon, they bond in trine relationship on the 2/10th sign, bot related to livelihood and making a living through profession.

I would certainly mix those two in describing what he does. I would say that both, Moon and Mercury are quite capable of bringing success in what they signify because they are both In Sect, so the ?how much? signified by the sect factor, would be pretty much.

I would say that Moon and Mercury would give someone who is associated with writing/communicating and something in which a large organization of people is involved, because of the Moon and the network of people with which she is symbolically connected. I have seen such Moon in chart of people who are involved in different business corporation, in modern times, internet corporations. Picture in your mind the chart of Bill Gates.
The lights on the most important angles, in dignity, though with not so much doruphoria (that box of Pandora), I would say that this is a person who is well known in his circles. He is maybe not the Oprah Winfrey popularity, but in his respected field, he is someone to which people would lean on.

I must be careful in assigning dignity, popularity, social status when examining such charts, because in the past, I have seen such ?fruity? charts in people totally non-realized in their life, and I sadly jumped too fast into conclusions. I guess the wisdom comes with age?

If I judge the prosperity of the chart, I would notice that Fortune is in the Place of Good Fortune, its ruler angular from the nativity. Exaltation Place is on the Ascendant, and Accomplishment and Acquisitions in Libra with both malefics and benefics (including the ruler) turned away. Mars is ruler of Spirit in Aries, he is in good zodiacal shape and angular, but turned away from Spirit, just as Jupiter is turned away from Fortune. Moon does not look at Fortune, but Sun looks as Spirit, so the dynamism of the Spirit is somehow strongly accentuated. I would say a person more solary inclined.

If I calculated right, Basis falls in Sagittarius. So, again, not many of the aforesaid rulers of the lots, although angular in respect to the nativity, exchange places with the Lots, nor are aspecting the respective lots. However, all the rulers are 'busy' and on operative places from the ascendant of the nativity, this is good.

There with Ascendant rises a star of second magnitude by name Dubhe, of Mars? nature for which Ptolemy says that gives a quiet, prudent, suspicious, mistrustful, self-controlled, patient nature, but an uneasy spirit and great anger and revenge-fulness when roused.

I would say with the choleric nature and Mars on IC angle, this is certainly a person who can be angrily aroused, controlling, and with Mars angular in dignity opposing the MC, pushing its own power to Jupiter ruler of Fortune in 5th, could we say that this person is dealing with sports?

Going on examining the stars which rises (or better said, the projections of the stars on the ecliptic) with the important points and planets in the chart, I would notice that there with Mars is the Southern Cross, nature of Jupiter:
Intuition, grasp of the inner nature of others. Preference for occult studies, the gift of successful investigation of the hidden side of things. Inventive mind. Deeply religious nature connected with mystical and theosophical interests.

This ?investigation of hiddern things" is furthermore accentuated by the position of Mars and Jupiter on IC, place which according to Valens gives priests and people who make a living in the temples.
Valens clearly says that if the ruler of ascendant or the Fortune is here on IC:

If benefics rule the Ascendant or Fortune, and are in this (IC) Place, the native will make his living in temples [it should stay "preachers" instead of "temples", Schmidt translated it better here]. If benefics are assigned the Archetypal Lot, and are houserulers at Lower Midheaven, the native will be given revelations by godsand through visions of ghostly shapes. If Mars is here with them and is assigned Fortune and the Ascendant, the native will live a troubled life, disgraced, falling into difficulties, engaged in criminal activity with others, and suffering a violent/self-inflicted death.
It must be observed that this Place implies good repute after death and bequests to heirs. If malefics are in this Place, the native will bequeath his property to whomever he wishes. [Riley]

But here is also the star named Acrux, again, of the nature of Jupiter:
Gives religions beneficence, ceremonial, justice, magic and mystery, and is frequently prominent in the horoscopes of astrologers and occultists. Inventive mind, intuition and wisdom, a grasp for the inner nature of one's fellow man. The gift of successful investigation of the hidden side of things. A deeply religious nature connected with mystical and theosophical interests.

Jupiter is there with the South Scale associated with the nature of Saturn and Mars and has some pretty bad signification keywords:
Loss, theft, betrayal, abuse, venereal disease, poisoning, drowning, anguish, revenge, criminality.

To be honest, I do not like to see the star Sharatan there with the Moon in Taurus. It is of the nature of Mars and Saturn according to Ptolemy, and has pretty nasty keywoards:
?Violence, defeat, accidents, injury, danger. Also honors & good fortune.?
This, and the thing that Moon rules 8th from Fortune, being in opposition to Mars and Jupiter ruler of Fortune, gives me some testimony for judgment that he may suffered a violent end too.

OK, these are all things I look aside of the main question, and that is:
Rather it is to find things in the chart that might demonstrate a level of success in two unrelated areas.

I like John Holland's 6 fold division of type of professions:
Realistic (Mars?)
Artistic *\(Venus?)
Investigative (Mercury?)
Social (Moon?)
Enterprising (Jupiter?)
Conventional (Saturn?)

With accentuated Moon/Mercury as we said above, we would look for a mix of social/investigative type of person, with skills of communicating, researching, sharing information with large group of people (Mercury rules the 11th which is the house of good spirit, natural joy of Jupiter, and place where people are joined in good intentions and with good expectations, i.e. groups?). I would say that probable professions are: business, some mission (maybe humanitarian deeds, or activities in non governmental, religious groups?), but with Moon one also could expect something divinatory, mystical, occult probably, and having said the symbolism of Mars and Jupiter on IC, especially with Mars ruling the 9th, one can?t rule out astrology and religion too. Though I wouldn?t put this man into the astrology gang.

I must admit that there is a huge range of different type of professions, and it is a tricky business delineating the right profession, maybe delineating the skills is not so tricky as the former.

But even if he is involved in some groups like religious organizations, society of writers, mystical occult orders, or business corporations, I would surely see him on the ladder higher on the hierarchy, to whom probably people lean on as some kind of authority.
With Sun ruler of 9th in 1st, and Mercury connected with the MC in dignity, one could expect Lawyer too. Probably he went to some law school or was somehow connected with that subject or this symbolism could take the role of religious preferences and dignities coming to the native?

So, if I try to blend influences of professions, and there are too many here with Moon applying toward all planets in the chart (pretty busy one!), I would say that he may have been interested in some mystical matters, he may also have been interested in participating in different groups, in writing and applying communication skills. BUT now I have in mind two charts with Moon up there in dignity in the sky, of people who were actors, and certainly with both lights angular in dignity, one can?t rule the Performance out. Performance is not only on the stage or the screen, but also on the sport fields. All these are "Performance".

Noel Tyle, not a traditional astrologer, but I will mention him with reason, wrote a book on professions and on his forum they often guess professions with these techniques. The main technique applied there is called ?career flow? if I am right. The technique is not a modern one, rather the application may be said is such. What he does is that he starts with the sign of MC and goes down to finding the final dispositor of the same. If we do this with the chart of this person, we would start with Taurus, its ruler Venus and will come to Mercury as final dispositor. So again here we have accent on Mercury and on investigative type of people or skills applied. But are we aware how much different outlets these investigation skills can have? One can be astrologer since we investigate the hidden things which influence and shapes human affairs, we look and investigate for signs, we are interpreters of the signs of the heavens. He can be geodetic engineer, certainly with those planets on IC. He can be a tarot reader or I Ching interpreter (lol). We do not live in medieval times anymore, we have a hundreds and hundreds different specializations now, sub sections and subdivisions of one main field.

To find the level of success in two unrelated areas.
I would say that he certainly found an outlet of expression and success in the skills/fields signified by Moon and Mercury since they are both dignified (how well), angular and in sect (how much), but I think that he may tried something else before or after that, and that may be related to some law/religious school (Sun exalted ruler of 9th in 1st) or engagement in preaching which could also, take very different roles in our modern society. But Sun on Asc is dignified and strong too, and Bonatti asks from us to start searching for the native's profession, from the stars found on ASC!
So, I would say that he could be successful in many fields, not just one.

I would say these keywords: performer/teacher/religion/mission/organizations/involved in groups, etc.

hi Ile,
i am unfamiliar with john holland.. what is the name of the book he wrote on professions, or more generally?

Ile wrote:

I like John Holland's 6 fold division of type of professions:
Realistic (Mars?)
Artistic *\(Venus?)
Investigative (Mercury?)
Social (Moon?)
Enterprising (Jupiter?)
Conventional (Saturn?)

Tom - I've posted a reply to your comments about knowing where we're coming from in the Philosophy forum, so as not to clutter things up here.
Graham

BTW, I have Mercury on the MC, and Moon in Gemini (sidereally):

John Holland's 6 fold division of type of professions:
Realistic (Mars?)
Artistic *\(Venus?)
Investigative (Mercury?)
Social (Moon?)
Enterprising (Jupiter?)
Conventional (Saturn?)

thanks Ile,

judith hill has written a book called 'vocational astrology' that is quite good if you are looking for more of this kind of astro literature.

graham - mercury is more curious then investigative from my point of view.. i suppose it depends on how deep the curiousity runs.. i find mercury/pluto contacts investigative, but i don't know about how investigative mercury is on its own.. it depends on the contacts mercury makes i think..