61 by james_m thanks for clarifying that with the links mark! here is debs quote for anyone interested who doesn't want to slueth thru 3 or 4 threads.. i think it is the best quote too.. see below i want to point out another chart that is very very close in details to the chart that was presented here.. astrodatabank is a wealth of information! if anyone is interested in commenting on how these 2 charts while so very similar led to very different lives and occupations, that would be interesting too! http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Musgrave,_Story mark - another mystery chart would be great! count me in! Deb wrote: My point is this: ancient astrologers didn?t just speculate about the moment of sunrise and sunset, they worshiped it, and they observed it religiously (or attempted to) in order to define it to a moment. The whole philosophy of sect is intimately bound to the concept of the seasonal hours, and assumes the belief that one planet?s hour represents a very different quality of time than the next planetary hour; and that the daytime hours are very different from the night time hours. We move from a day time hour to a night time hour in an instant and in that instant the chart changes from being a diurnal chart to nocturnal one. It is at this moment that sect alignments change, and I don?t believe it is philosophically justified or practically convenient to bring in a fudge factor to recognize twilight, be it nautical, civil or astronomical. As the planetary recording of time changes from diurnal to nocturnal, that is when the definition of the chart changes ? that is all I am saying; not that twilight doesn?t have a certain quality of its own. It might be argued that the planetary hours don?t mean much in modern astrology, but they certainly did in ancient astrology, which is where the concept of sect is most deeply embedded. But yes, twilight has a different quality; that is another issue. On the other hand I have sat and watched the sunset, doing nothing else but sitting and observing the sunset, and there is ? very definitely ? a single moment when the energy changes; when the last remnant of the Sun's disc disappears. The only time I have been able to see the same effect with sunrise was when I was in an airplane and I was watching the sun slowly rise over the a widespread horizon. The moment it actually rose was startling, because the whole horizon glittered, in the same way that a total eclipse glitters for a moment in its diamond effect. That is when I understood why it was such a sacred and religious moment, and that we can?t expect to spread its magic out to some extended period of time when the light is increasing or fading. ============== I am editing this post to say that a clear definition of what constitutes daytime and night time is given in Ptolemy's Almagest, at the start of chapter VIII - the chart becomes diurnal as the Sun becomes exact with the local horizon.
62 by Tom I'm pulling out some relevant comments and making my own to support them. If I didn't pick your or missed a good, I'm sorry. It isn't intentional. In order to get this done quickly I am not identifying the writers of the quotes. Dorotheous states if the Triplicity ruler is angular and in their exaltation, the native would receive praise of noble and wealthy men! Also since she rules public opinion and the public at large I will assume he has a certain degree of public charm and acclaim. Never heard a bad word spoken or written about him. The chart is very fixed. He is a Christian Fundamentalist Ok. I do sometimes think the medieval tradition went completely overboard in writing off planets in detriment or fall. Me, too. In descriptions we read that planets in detriment are like being cast into hell, but in delineations the detriment is sometimes ignored. He has interest in exo-biology and paranormal but can not become an astrologer. Well as a fundamentalist Christian he cannot become an astrologer. I wonder though, if what is perceived as an interest in the paranormal is really interest in the more conventional spiritual life. From 1994 to 1996 mid he experienced paranormal. This is the comment I referred to when I told the story of Mickey Mantle's death. I ?mis-remembered? it. But the dates are interesting. Richardson did help Mantle in 1995, whether he experienced anything that could be called paranormal or not I don't know. Why I am not surprised to see the Moon involved in people who have changed their careers? I thought this was achingly obvious and was a bit surprised it wasn't jumped on immediately. The first thing I notice is that Moon is applying toward Mercury very closely by Trine, and is translating Mercury?s significations up onto the MC which is the praxis, our actions and what we do, I thought this was significant, too. Mercury is agility and is in soft aspect to Mars (physical activity) and the Moon (the body). I know that I have all the advantages here since I knew who he was, what he did, and in what areas he excelled. So this hit me as right on the money. Although it is not so much that an astrologer should be able to say, ?Second baseman with exceptional fielding ability,? it is accurate as far as it goes. Exaltation Place is on the Ascendant, and Accomplishment and Acquisitions in Libra I found this fascinating because of something I read years ago, probably in a Sun sign book. It said baseball players were most likely to be Libras (Mickey Mantle was a Libra). That may have been true when those words were written, but I doubt it is true today. But the idea struck me because Libra is the balance scales. Baseball is a game where one side tries to maintain the balance (defense) and the other tries to disrupt it (offense). If you look at a baseball field from above you see the obvious symmetry. The baseball diamond is actually a square tilted on its side. If we go from the tip of the square to its opposite point we see four players forming a line in the middle (catcher, pitcher, and center fielder. Then there are three players on either side ? perfect balance. If the hitter hits the ball in the air to a fielder, the symmetry is undisturbed and he is ?out.? If he hits the ball between two defenders, they, in an effort to catch the ball have to move disturbing the symmetry of the field. It is now out of balance. Richardson excelled at maintaining the balance in the field. This took grace, and skill.
63 by Graham F Hi Tom Thanks for the exercise and the resum?. you say:Quote: "Why I am not surprised to see the Moon involved in people who have changed their careers?" I thought this was achingly obvious and was a bit surprised it wasn't jumped on immediately. Actually it was the first thing I said (but on sidereal forum):Moon R1 in 10 with MC, and NN in 6 aspecting 10 (full trine aspect) ? the man's career(s) and daily work probably most important area in his life; it may be changeable (Moon) Graham
64 by Graham F Tom wrote "Exaltation Place is on the Ascendant, and Accomplishment and Acquisitions in Libra" I found this fascinating because of something I read years ago, probably in a Sun sign book. It said baseball players were most likely to be Libras (Mickey Mantle was a Libra). That may have been true when those words were written, but I doubt it is true today. But the idea struck me because Libra is the balance scales. Baseball is a game where one side tries to maintain the balance [...] Tom - this guy has nothing at all in Libra tropically except a rather obscure lot. He's probably got lots of asteroids and midpoints there too. And I seemed to remember, and checked back ("Aquarius and Saturn"), that you recently shut down a thread after writing: We don't do Sun sign astrology on the Traditional Forum. But thanks again for the exercise, I'm just really surprised by the inclusion of this last paragraph, interesting as this geometry of baseball may be. Graham
65 by Tom I wasn't doing Sun sign astrology. I was relating the symbolism of Libra and the location of a lot. I said I might have read something in a Sun sign book (it may of been somewhere else) but was not talking about an individual's Sun. In fact what I wrote wasn't anything close so Sun sign astrology.
66 by Mark Graham F wrote: Actually it was the first thing I said (but on sidereal forum) That is the problem trying to run the Mystery chart exercise on two forums. As this is the main place it operates most people will obviously just look here. If you want all your comments noticed I suggest you post them all here rather than different version of your post in each forum. Even better why not run all your comments here and drop the shadow thread on the sidereal forum altogether? I understand why the sidereal forum was created. However, when it comes Mystery chart exercises why do we have to have an astrological apartheid? Ok some astrologers may not understand some of the Indian concepts used. However, I am sure some hellenistic techniques look pretty arcane to those working with the astrology of Lilly or Morin. Keep in mind the acid test is not whether Tom , myself or a few of the regular posters happen to follow all your particular techniques. There is a much wider readership of these threads by people who never post here. Many people in the 'silent majority' may gain inspiration from your astrological insights. So I think it makes sense to have all our commentary in one place. It gets confusing and unwieldly having discussion of the same charts on different threads in different forums. Mark Last edited by Mark on Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total. As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly
67 by james_m Mark wrote:However, when it comes Mystery chart exercises why do we have to have an astrological apartheid? might that have to do with people wanting everything placed in the correct box/category? if folks were a little more relaxed with that, it could work.. it is the main reason i post in the general astrology area, as i don't have to suffer not doing astrology the prescribed way and -> anyone can participate regardless of the box they put it in, or style they opt to use for doing astrology..
68 by Graham F Tom OK, fair enough, it's not Sun sign, or just the original idea was. It's still pretty obscure, drawing on symbolism from the shape of the constellation Libra in a tropical (nothing to do with the constellations any more) delineation of a chart with no major or visible factors in tropical Libra. You'll remember that you earlier looked at the sidereal chart to make the point that Mars is in Libra (detriment), so you thought his Mars side should be weak, if sidereal was valid. That might have opened an interesting line of enquiry for the Libra/baseball connection: Mars R10 and 5 (5 can involve sports, games, competitive activities) and aspecting R1 in 10, is in detriment in Libra - he was good on the baseball field, and made it his career for a while but in a primarily defensive role (fielder), but was a poor hitter and left competitive sport early (could support what a number of members have said about detriment being just mildly afflicting). Graham
69 by Graham F Mark wrote:If you want all your comments noticed I suggest you post them all here rather than different version of your post in each forum. Even better why not run all your comments here and drop the shadow thread on the sidereal forum altogether? I agree entirely, but I got the impression some people were mildly irritated by sidereal intrusions in the Traditional thread, so I just signalled that I'd posted on sidereal forum. If it had just been a simple answer like "chart n?2 is the soldier", I'd have said that here as well, with the reasoning on the other forum. There was a thread a while back, can't remember which, where it was even implied that sidereal wasn't traditional, at least not in the sense that this forum meant it. I suggest that an alternative might be a separate forum for Mystery Charts. Chart is posted in tropical (whatever house system has the consensus - I suggest a quadrant one as WS is easy to work out) and sidereal (any house system and ayanamsa will do, as long as they're marked), people post their answers all together in taht new forum, the result is given there and comments can be made there. Then if some feel that interesting points have been made re technique or principles that need developing, they can take them back to their own forum. But even as the system stands, it's better than nothing, a chance to try things out. Graham
70 by Tom drawing on symbolism from the shape of the constellation Libra in a tropical (nothing to do with the constellations any more) delineation of a chart with no major or visible factors in tropical Libra. Sorry but I don't think the shape of the constellation Libra looks anything like a scale. I didn't mention the constellation - only the symbolism of the sign Libra. Antiscia isn't visible either neither is the MC or any house cusps. Maybe we shouldn't use those. If you wish to practice sidereal astrology fine. Go and do it. But if you want to lobby on its behalf, take it elsewhere. From this point on sidereal astrology stays in the sidereal Forum. That clarifies things and solves any potential problems.
71 by Mark Graham F wrote: I agree entirely, but I got the impression some people were mildly irritated by sidereal intrusions in the Traditional thread, so I just signalled that I'd posted on sidereal forum. Historically, I think sidereal astrology has as much validity here as tropicalism. So I think traditional astrology is an equal concern irrespective of chosen zodiac. I suggest that an alternative might be a separate forum for Mystery Charts. This picks up the point by James above too. Although he is clearly hinting at his disatisfaction with not being able to use modern techniques here like midpoints. I think that is a fair point too. Although you can hardly blame the mystery chart format on the traditional forum. Maybe the Mystery chart format is bigger than the traditional forum. There has never been anything stopping other members opening Mystery charts. James did so not that long ago. I think I will open a mystery chart thread on the General forum where I will post the chart in both zodiacs and encourage participation with any delineation technique people want to use. The only limitation would be it would have to utilise horoscopic astrology. I have seen people using systems like Nine Star Ki and Four Pillar Chinese astrology which are not genuinely horoscopic in the sense of plotting planetary movements. Mark As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly
72 by Mark Tom wrote: From this point on sidereal astrology stays in the sidereal Forum. That clarifies things and solves any potential problems. Personally, I think it might have been stimulating to incorporate both zodiacs in Mystery charts here. However, you are the moderator and if keeping things demarcated works for you fair enough. I suppose there is the issue that most members here are traditional. Sidereal traditionalists effectively have their own forum now. So keeping traditional mystery charts for tropicalists here does have some logic. I guess I am more interested in an inclusive approach. So if you have no objections I will be running mystery charts on the General forum displayed in both zodiacs. I will also invite delineations using contemporary techniques too. Mark As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly