Let us again see the question.

When you asked the question, what you had in mind was a committed relationship. So, if we see Lords of 1st and 7th house they were applying in Trine. By all accounts it means 'Yes'. But it did not happen.

We have two options.

a) The chart did not give us a correct answer and
b) There is some mistake in choosing a significator.

I dont think that there is any genuinely asked question which can not be answered.

5th house is not a negative house. The relationship it covers are those in which we share 'Joys' but not 'Sorrows' (children are fruits of venus). So it could be sex partners, normal friends, pub friends, hobby friends, sport friends.

7th house is not a 'Lovey dovey' house. The people it represents are those who engage our egos in a conflict. They challenge us on equal basis. They confront us on equal basis. We lock our horns and try desperately to maintain a balance.

Partnerships
Marriage (Live in relationship etc etc)
Open Enemies
Wars

The context of the question determines a house and it has built in dynamics.

I want to marry a neighbor girl. Would I?

Will I (first house) marry (any applying aspect between us) marry a neighbor girl (3rd house).

Would my professor (9th house) think (any applying aspect) about me (1st house).

Did my brother (3rd house) talk nicely in the past (separating Trine) about me (1st house). Consider receptions also

Will my chineese table tennis partner girl (5th house) marry (applying good aspect) me (1st house). Consider receptions also

Thank you for your very detailed explanations.

It is possible that I chose the wrong significator, but even taking the 5th ruler (Mercury) for him and the Moon for myself, the answer would have been "yes" (the Moon trines Mercury).

I really don't wish to discuss this matter any further. I just wanted to update the thread because it's just fair that the ones who put time on this chart knew about the outcome.

I had build so many hopes of the answer being a "yes", I really believed it would happen. Now it just makes me sad to think about it and see how my hopes have been dashed.

Pisces

This is Lilly in his chapter XXI "To know whether a thing demanded will be brought to perfection yea or nay", page 125 "Things are also brought to pass when as the principal significators apply by ? or ? aspect out of good houses and places where they are essentially well dignified..."

Coley, in aphorism XX of his "Choice aphorisms to be considered in the judgement of horary questions" on page 133, "Be not too forward to give a positive judgement upon any question, although your significators be in conjunction, before you have seriously considered the sign they are in, whether it be a sign of their own nature or not, and whether they are said to delight therein; if so, it argues what they promise to be easily and speedily performed, otherwise the contrary."

Lee Lehman in "The Martial Art of Horary Astrology" relates how she once undertook a review of her answers to horary questions that had not 'come to pass' in an attempt to find where she was going wrong. The main factor in those answers that did not pan out was that the significators were not well dignified. In other words, they did not have the energy to follow through on the matter promised.

Perhaps the significators in this chart are just not in good enough shape to bring the matter to perfection...?

Geoffrey

Geoffrey,

I am aware that the dignities (essential as well as accidental) and receptions weigh equally in a relationship question and some of the members in this thread talked about them. But I have not seen chart where 1-7 significators were well placed for the 'action' as are in this chart.

L7 though in detriment is well placed in 1st house (good house). Some authors also take this as a positive testimony.

L1 is in 5th house (good house) .

Immediate applying Trine.

It could mean that either we have to wait for the further development of the events or the significators have not been chosen correctly.

Which brings me to my practical experience in Horary. Which tells me that care must be taken to choose the significator of the person asked about. The person could be represented by 3rd house, 5th house, 6th house (questions regarding marrying slaves in astrological geomancy), 9th house (priest, professor, family doctor etc), 10th house (boss, King like would I marry my boss?)

Why is this that whenever a question of marriage or relationship comes we try to assign 1-7 houses. 7th house indicates a spouse, live in partner (no doubt about that) in an ongoing relationship but it can not be automatically extended to every person whom we want to marry.

My wife is my first cousin. Before marriage she was 3rd house person but now she is 7th house person. If I had asked a question before marriage about her it would have been 1-3 house question.

Marriage as a state is a 7th house signification but the person whom I want to marry might not be 7th house person at the time of asking the question.

Hello Gryffindor

Your posts are always thought provoking and your last here is no exception.

While the significators in this chart are indeed as "well placed for action" as I too have ever seen, the significators also need the get up and go to perform (as Coley succinctly stated). As has been commented on throughout this thread, the dignity of the significators could be better - much better.

There was some discussion as to whether it was the moon only which could be 'via combusta', but that does not seem to have been the view traditionally held. I quote from Bethem's Centiloquium (number 94) "The Lord of the Ascendant in via Combusta, the Question is corrupted..." Enough said, perhaps?

As for whether we should take the 7th for the significator of the quesited, that is an interesting question. Is the quesited here the desired relationship? Or is the quesited the other person with whom the desired relationship is hoped for?

I think it is clear from a reading of Lilly that it is the desired relationship that is the quesited, rather than the current status of the person desired in relation to the querent, and it would appear that every other author would follow suit. There seems to be no clear equivalent question to that asked here in Christian Astrology, but in Coley's Clavis Astrologiae Elimata, page 253, he examines the question, "Shall I have the desired party (in marriage)?" and Coley does not hesitate to use the ruler of the 7th as the significator for the quesited.

Geoffrey

Geoffrey wrote: As has been commented on throughout this thread, the dignity of the significators could be better - much better.

There was some discussion as to whether it was the moon only which could be 'via combusta', but that does not seem to have been the view traditionally held. I quote from Bethem's Centiloquium (number 94) "The Lord of the Ascendant in via Combusta, the Question is corrupted..." Enough said, perhaps?

I agree with Geoffrey that this seems the most plausible explanation as to why it didn't come to pass.

Hi Geoffrey,

My first instinct was to draft a long answer but...would only say...

I recognise evolution in thoughts, actions and inventions. If the Horary was complete and has not progressed beyond 17th century I can now understand why it died and would die again.



* Gryffindor returns back to his smart phone and sends a text message to his friend living in Bolivia*

Gryffindor wrote:If the Horary was complete and has not progressed beyond 17th century I can now understand why it died and would die again.

Why don't you draft your long reply and post it in the philosophy section? It is a worthy topic.

I would...when I am in a mood. I already had a long discussion regarding 5th/7th house debate. English is not my first or second language. It takes me a lot of time to type something intelligible. So, sometimes I think is it worth an effort to communicate a thing which I observed in my experience alone and contradicts Lilly? I consider Lilly to be a wonderful author but not necessarily a good Horary Practitioner. The only claims to his greatness except his book are Fire of London and his anti-monarch stance and once the monarch issues were settled, he was no longer required.

Just a few additional remarks which might prove relevant for the final outcome of this question.

First of all, I don't think Mercury is all that incapacitated/weak because a planet is said to be "strong" whenever

1)...the planet will be in a good place from the rising:that is, in the stakes and what is following that, from the places which observe the rising

2)...the planet is in one of its own portions or dignities(that is, in its own domicile or exaltation or triplicity or bounds, or its face or its own joy

3)...it is received
Mercury is received by Jupiter in his triplicity/bound

4) ...the feminine planets(that is, Venus, Mercury, the Moon) are occidental(that is, appearing in the evening).

Works of Sahl&Masha'allah, On the Strength of the Planets

Here Mercury definitely belongs to nocturnal sect because it is occidental of the Sun and the chart is nocturnal, which also reinforces its "strength"

This leads us to the next consideration, the 54th in Bonatti's list, which states that an inferior is fortified when it is removed from the Sun by 12 degrees, direct in its evening rising.

Mercury has but one "weakness", and it has to do with its position in via combusta. However, the list of its "strengths" clearly presents a proof of its ability to act!

Now to Jupiter.

Yes,it is in its detriment but it is also in its triplicity in the 1st which is the strongest/best house of the chart and it is received by Mercury. Reception is a very strengthening/beneficent condition for any planet enjoying it.However, here it bestows another weighty benefit because Mercury is actually ?pushing power?i.e. its dignity to Jupiter,which receives it and is in turn received ? and that actually means Jupiter gets lifted up/enriched with essential dignity of its host!

[Gr.Intr.VII.5.1015 ? 18] Also the pushing of strength is that a planet would be in its own proper domicile or in its own exaltation(or in its own term or in its own triplicity or face)and it would be joined to another planet, and it would push its own strength to it.

[Beg.of Wis. VIII.51] If the lord of the ascendant gave power to lord of the house of the matter sought, what is sought will be gotten according to his wishes

Judgment 25:On planets when they are received
When planets are received, and they are benefics, their good will be stronger; and if they were malefics, their impediment will be less.

Most importantly, Jupiter's position in the 1st and the application with Mercury, the lord of the 1st, are very convincing indicators for a "yes" answer to the question - especially because of the perfectly harmonious trine with mutual reception.

Yes, this Jupiter is also very slow(close to its first station on October 5th) and here's what Sahl has to say about such a planet when it rules the quesited

Judgment 13: On a planet slow in course

If a planet were slow, it puts aside its own number or its own promise. That is, it makes a delay in number or its own promise both in the good and the bad. It does likewise if it were in the domiciles of Saturn or Jupiter. And in the domiciles of the light planets, it hastens

This leads us to the timing issue in this chart.

It is not always so simple/straightforward as a well-known equation of a degree with a day, week, month or a year would make us believe. There are other ways of telling when something may come to pass.

But first, let's look at the position of Jupiter a bit closer because its overall condition as the ruler of the quesited may prove to be very important in unraveling the (more or less exact!) time span needed for the desired outcome to occur.

I've already pointed out it's very slow, so we should remember that such a planet delays its ?promise?. Jupiter is in an angle of the ascendant and in Gemini(a common sign), and we're told that

They signify the loosenings of the matters and repetitions, and other things will be attached to that matter [Judgment 46:What the planets would signify in the signs, concerning the stability of the matter]

The common signs signify matters which cannot come to be and which are repeated a second time(Judgment 47:What the signs would signify in questions)

Also, a fast place from the ascendant (that is, the superior part)signifies the quickness of the time; and the slow part of the circle(which is the descending part)signifies slowness in time[in other words, the eastern hemisphere of the chart shows things hastening, and the western hemisphere shows things slowing down.] The ascendant and the tenth signify quickness in time. And the seventh signifies months and is slower; indeed, the angle of the earth is slow, and it signifies years. And if the planetary significator of the time were in common signs, it doubles the time(Works of Sahl&Masha'allah,On Times, p.225)

We're also told that if the significator were in common signs, it will generally signify months; and the signs of the light planets usually signify days or months. Both Mercury and Jupiter are in the signs of the light planets, but Mercury, apart from being in a quick cardinal sign, is also in the slow, western hemisphere of the chart. Libra is one of the signs of long ascension, and such signs are said to prolong the matter(Dorotheus).

I note that Mercury is one degree away from perfecting its trine with Jupiter which could mean either a day, a week, a month or a year. Now we already know it's neither of the first three, so the only remaining option would be a year. And this option is reinforced by the fact that one of the timing techiques employs the lesser years of the planets converted into days, weeks or months. Jupiter's lesser years are 12, and such a number of months would fit nicely into one degree signifying a year.

Another possibility is to look when Mercury will arrive to Jupiter by body, i.e. when the actual conjunction by transit occurs. This happens in the last few days of May. Still another is to look when the Sun will reach either the ascendant degree or the lord of the matter, i.e Jupiter. That brings us to either June 6th/7th or June 19th/20th, when the Sun catches up with transiting Jupiter. At any rate, things might get stirred up again pretty strongly on/close to these dates.

Time will tell which of these timing techniques(if any!) might bring the matter to perfection. It may take even longer than a year, if we remember that a very slow Jupiter will put aside its number(12!) and hence, its promise.

IMHO,the greatest ?danger? lies in the fact that Jupiter is so close to its first station

Judgment 48: On a stationary planet
If a planet were to stand toward retrogradation, it signifies the dissolution of a purpose, and disobedience...it signifies their destruction and slowness.

However, it will be stationary in eight days, so maybe this is enough to save the day? We'll see. The example of a horary question with a planet close to its first station[Jupiter in Pisces as the ruler of the quesited in the 10th] given by Sahl is pretty disheartening, because it was judged the purpose would be destroyed on account of this.

As to the Moon,she is weakened by being peregrine(though I'd point out she's also in her lunar half, which means dignified as in her own bounds ? Abu Ma'shar),by her position in a cadent 9th opposite her house of joy, she's slowing down in course and is in a sign of a superior planet/in the western hemisphere of the chart ? all of these conditions would also contribute to the slowness of the matter.

So the bottom line is ? I don't think we've seen it all yet

Goran,

Thank you!

I have no words.

Piscesgirl,

I don't know if you'll see this as it's been awhile since you last posted, but I agree with others that maybe the outcome has not yet arrived?

When you originally responded that you knew the outcome, and that the relationship had not come to pass, my initial response was, "but how does she know?" Did you have a specific time-frame in mind when you asked your horary question? Has something happened (like him getting married to someone else or telling you he hates your guts or something) that gives you a clear reason to think it could not happen now?

Saturn is in the 5th House (of romance) so could be causing some delays or limitations there. Also, Libra (sign of partnership, in which Mercury, Saturn and Sun are placed) is intercepted in the 5th house. I don't know actually what traditional astrology has to say about intercepted signs in the houses (I believe you asked about that somewhere earlier in the thread) but it could be giving an indication of difficult energy in terms of manifesting a relationship even though the romantic feelings are obviously there.

Also, what I see here is Moon (signifying both you and the general situation) applying to a trine to Mercury (you) from the 9th House of education and also divination. Moon is in Aquarius, a sign of distance, independence. It could be that really what you most need for a good long while is actually to be more focused on your education. It could also be an indication here that this situation provides you a necessary way of testing and strengthening your astrological divination skills, where Aquarius=interest in metaphysics and 9th house=divination.

I know that when I do romance horaries for myself I still always learn a LOT about the methods of horary in the process. I am an Aqua rising and Aqua SN though so I guess, even though I'm very emtionally attached to personal situations I also can sort of intellectually detach enough to view it from that perspective as well.

Anyway, good luck! If this relationship still has not worked out, or if it never does, then it is probably that other, better things are meant for you instead!