Greetings, Forum Participants:

Recently, I started a thread requesting input on two employment-related horaries, and unintentionally sparked a debate about the correct house placement for questions about jobs and employment. I thought it would fun and edifying to move this debate to its own dedicated thread.

I would much appreciate it if forum participants would take the time to describe which house they use to represent a querent's job (or prospective job)--the 6th house or the 10th house? If someone asked you to tell them whether or not they would get a specific job they applied for, how would you approach the question? Would you use the 6th house, because it is traditionally associated with labor, daily routine and employees, or would you use the 10th house, because it traditionally represents public status and social position?

I am looking forward to hearing what folks out there have to say. Thanks for in advance for your insights.

Would you use the 6th house, because it is traditionally associated with labor, daily routine and employees, or would you use the 10th house, because it traditionally represents public status and social position?

I can't say much more than I already have in the other thread. I always use the 10th house. It has always been the traditional house to use for questions of a job related nature. When you say above that the 6th house has traditionally been associated with employees, it means the employees of the person asking the question. It does not mean you as an employee. You don't use the 6th house when asking about your job because you are an employee. If your boss was asking a question about you, he/she would use the 6th house. If you were asking a question about your job as an employee yourself, you would use the 10th house. This is regardless of how meaningless you think your job is. When Ibn Ezra, to use an example, states that the 10th house relates to all professions, he means anything you are employed for. There is a tendency these days to see only particular positions as professions and this has possibly contributed to the confusion about the houses. However, there is no differentiation in horary. Questions about your job, whether you are a street sweeper or a rocket scientist both belong in the 10th house.

The association of the 10th house with the professional career, in whatever form it is in, traces right back to the roots of house meanings. Even the moderns understand that the 10th house signifies the public, professional self. As far as horary is concerned, Lilly was very clear that questions regarding the profession, trade or craft are assigned to the 10th house.

The 6th house, originally a house of weakness and ill-fortune, became associated with slavery and a lack of expression. Out of that it developed a natural descriptive affiliation with professions dealing with servitude (or medical matters since it is the house of weakness and illness). However it would still be appropriate to put questions regarding employment in these trades to the 10th house. The influence of the 6th house is brought in descriptively ? ie, finding the 10th house ruler in the 6th would describe an unrewarding profession or one that might involve dealing with illness. No need to ignore the 6th house, but you wouldn?t assign your question to it.

I can?t answer much from experience, only theory. I have often considered this issue and find the traditional ?10th as job? unconvincing. The idea of a job just isn?t the same now as in the 17th century and before. The modern idea of ?job? and work probably didn?t even exist. Before the industrial revolution a huge percentage of the population, perhaps a majority, lived on and worked the land. That was a lifestyle, not a job. Our concept of ?job? would be alien to those village and farm people. Now we have hordes of bookkeepers, factory workers, hotel staff, supermarket clerks, etc. The student who works as a bank teller during the day and takes her classes at night would hardly have been likely in ancient Greece and the Middle East. An important consideration is the fact that these people and positions are fluid. The job/work link with the 10th house as social standing seems much softer. The social change has been so extreme in this case that I believe it?s valid to reconsider this house issue.The traditional astrology we study is pre-Industrial Revolution. Our lives aren?t.

I don?t see how the 6th house has to be the native?s or querent?s servants or employees. The chart Ascendant offers a valid astrological argument for the 6th being an indication of the native or querent as a servant or employee. The 6th house has such a bad reputation partly because of its lack of aspect to the Ascendant. It is the house of ill health for the person involved because of this relationship to the Ascendant. If the 6th can make a person ill, it can also make the person a servant or employee. That actually makes more sense than the lack of aspect to the Ascendant giving the person servants and employees.

I find this excerpt from Deb?s 6th house dicussion in ?The Houses: Temples of the Sky to be teasingly vague on the matter:

Like the 12th, the 6th house was perceived as a hostile area, full of misery, labour and toil, and specifically related to matters of illness and disease. Anciently, it was said to represent slavery, but perhaps in a milder form than that of the 12th, since its traditional rulership is primarily concerned with servants, maids and labourers, or the mundane chores performed out of necessity.

Many modem astrologers, being told that the 6th house rules work, often over-emphasise its influence in career matters and professional concerns; yet the words 'profession' and 'career' suggest a striving towards betterment which is properly represented by the midheaven. The 6th is concerned with drudgery and labour and holds no promise of advancement. To use such words undermines the negativity of the area and the physical restraint it places upon us. The fact that servants were attributed here is a reflection of the level of respect they commanded - they were paid to do the menial tasks that others sought to avoid if possible. The work that is symbolised by the 6th is performed out of need. Employers have no relevance here, though employees clearly do.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/7.html

Consideration of the Ascendant sure seems to point to the person and his or her routine work. But what do I know?

I see we posted at exactly the same moment Kirk ? we must be psychotically linked

We also have to be careful about distinguishing between natal evaluation and horary technique. In horary, if you are asking about a job opportunity, it doesn?t matter how menial that job is, or how menial the position within it is, it would still be a question driven by a professional concern. It is still a matter of employment.

At that point in the book I am discussing the symbolic factors that have led to the development of house meanings through historical authors. A much clearer statement on their meaning in contemporary astrological practice is given under the section ?House Rulerships in Practice?.

10th house is here http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h10.html
6th house is here http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h6.html

Those sections were compiled after reviewing house meanings though a very wide variety of ancient, traditional and modern authors. So it is intended to be a reliable evaluation of house meanings, not a controversial one (as much as one is able to do such a thing in a brief evaluation). The ones I have ignored are those that retain no connection to traditional theory and generally accepted opinion.

In horary, if you are asking about a job opportunity, it doesn?t matter how menial that job is, or how menial the position within it is, it would still be a question driven by a professional concern. It is still a matter of employment.

To me this is the 6th house. Applying for a job is a humbling experience: you have to do what you can to sell yourself and be attractive to those who have the power to decide if you get the job or not. They have the power, not you. You are in a position of asking and waiting for an answer. The recognition and public standing you may receive from your performance at the 6th house workplace comes later and would be 10th house. Once again, this relates to the relationship to the Ascendant. When working with a chart concerning asking to be hired for a position which involves employment under other people it seems odd looking at the 10th where the Sun has climbed high in the daytime sky. The 10th seems more appropriate for public achievement and final outcomes and would indicate the ultimate professional concerns and goals the person has in mind. That ties in with the idea of the 10th indicating success of the matter in electional astrology.

The 6th seems more appropriate for the drudgery and submission to others along the way; that is, the workplace. And the house which lacks an aspect to the Ascendant and which is the house of the recently ?dead? Sun in the nocturnal hemisphere seems symbolically appropriate for an environment of submission for the person indicated by the Ascendant. Also, the cadency of the 6th seems better suited to a job and the workplace than the strong angularity of the 10th.

I do believe I have convinced myself!

But that?s sort of the point. In seeking a position you are hoping for advancement. Even if you feel that applying for the job is humbling, the subsequent allocation of it to you wouldn?t be a humbling experience (if it is there will be 6th house connections).

Look at this from another angle. If you are asking about the potential of getting a job, and you see your significator or the Moon in the 6th house ? is that a good thing or a bad thing? We normally see emplacement as a good indication, but I would not rate my chances of success if my significator was in such a poor placement. At best I?d see it as me undermining myself or being undermined by others. So I?d say this would be an argument against me getting the job. But if it was the 10th-house ruler in the 6th, I?d say the job is beneath me and I could do a lot better.

In seeking a position you are hoping for advancement. Even if you feel that applying for the job is humbling, the subsequent allocation of it to you wouldn?t be a humbling experience (if it is there will be 6th house connections).

Yes! You are trying to enter the environment at the 6th which provides the opportunity for the advancement and recognition of the 10th. The 6th house job and workplace is the beginning.

If you are asking about the potential of getting a job, and you see your significator or the Moon in the 6th house ? is that a good thing or a bad thing? We normally see emplacement as a good indication, but I would not rate my chances of success if my significator was in such a poor placement.

Possibly a well-dignified and well-aspected Moon or significator will get you into that workplace. The 6th house doesn?t have the last say in yes or no. Maybe traditional astrologers tend to be a little superstitious regarding the 6th? I realize I?m debating with a master horary practitioner here, but I?ve learned a thing or two. I?m now working on three.

Well I?d say dump this then or you?ll never get to four

It?s not superstition about the 6th; you could get rid of all the other elements of weakness and it would still be a matter of cadency. The 6th is a place where a planet has very little strength to express itself so the Moon can?t be ?well dignified? when in that position. Horaries where the quesited is allocated to the 6th are not ones people show an interest in getting; they are generally ones they want to avoid. If someone wants a job enough to ask a question about it, it?s inevitably a matter of their professional concern. That is why Lilly states that Saturn or the South Node in the 10th gives little sense of esteem or ?not much joy in his profession?. On the other hand, professional esteem and advancement comes from positive indications of the 10th.

Plus, you wouldn?t try to enter the work environment through the 6th. When you apply for a job you put on your best show, not your weakest.

However, that?s me said on this matter ....

Horaries where the quesited is allocated to the 6th are not ones people show an interest in getting; they are generally ones they want to avoid.

The following are excerpts from ?The House Rulerships in Practice?.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h6.html

Employees, tenants and servants. Lilly specifically mentions day-labourers, farmers and shepherds. Goldstein-Jacobson mentions those who live on the native's property, such as caretakers, au-pairs, lodgers, etc. Also domestic issues gernerally; this house has some relevance to domestic appliances that are purchased to ease day to day chores and laborious tasks.

Pets, small animals and lesser cattle (ie., hogs, sheep, goats, rabbits) and any profit or loss attached to the sale of such cattle. The 6th house also has a connection with farming and crops generally.

People generally want to avoid having pets and gaining from the sale of their sheep and crops? They don?t want good employees and tenants? The 6th house has been given rulership over desirable things. But the problem is in the following:

[...]you could get rid of all the other elements of weakness and it would still be a matter of cadency. The 6th is a place where a planet has very little strength to express itself so the Moon can?t be ?well dignified? when in that position.

Astrologers have a flawed tool to work with. The determination of planetary strength interferes here with house rulerships. How can the house be used to show planetary weakness and positive signification of perfectly desirable things? The rulerships given to the 6th house in combination with the older Hellenic 6th house cadency and lack of aspect to the Ascendant makes the 6th a difficult spot for chart delineation. Before the medieval era there seems to have been a consistency of negative meanings. The chart ?6th House Associations Through History? shows that by Al-Biruni in the 11th century the Hellenic meaning of the house was modified and made more complicated.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/7.html

Now, after the additional significations, astrologers are forced to get wine and vinegar out of the same bottle. In closely following the astrology of Lilly and later one is working with a complicated tool which leads to conflicting usage of the house.

Maybe we shouldn?t use the 6th for jobs and the workplace because of the weakness and harmfulness of the house. But then we also shouldn?t use it to indicate the strength of dominion over employees and profit from the sale of sheep.

I would always use the 10th house for whether or not someone gets the job, on the basis that it is an identity issue. I might consider other houses such as 2nd for income, 11th (as 2nd from 10th) if the main purpose of the job is money and not professional development- but I often find in these cases that the same ruler rules both houses.

I might even look at the state of the 5th if the person is wondering whether to TAKE a job and creativity is important to them.

I have always considered the 6th house as the house of "hygiene" or comfort/discomfort factors in everyday life and therefore the workPLACE but not the job itself - ie it is not what the querent will DO but what will happen around him. So I would consider it described the nature of the office/factory whatever, things like whether it is open plan or partitioned, whether people stand around and chat etc etc. Essentially most individuals have no say in these things even when they negotiate their job contract -which ties with the weakness of the 6th house.

Although I agree with Kirk that job hunting is humbling, in the case of an individual position I still see that as shown by the 10th house if badly aspected. In the end the querent can always refuse an individual job even if they have no choice in general whether they work for the financial reasons mentioned.

As a welsh person from a sheep farming family I can't resist trying to reconcile the 6th house sheep problem even though I have no horary experience in this area. In Lilly's day farmers and shepherds would be tenants of the estate and therefore effectively servants correctly placed in the 6th from the point of view of the querent as estate owner and the sheep and their price dependent on those tenants and the market, incidental to and not the major source of the querents income which would presumably be the rents from land. However if the farmer is self employed, as is usual today, then income from sheep is presumably income from profession and the 6th house is not relevant.

I would need to think further to commnet on employees and pets.

I have always considered the 6th house as the house of "hygiene" or comfort/discomfort factors in everyday life and therefore the workPLACE but not the job itself - ie it is not what the querent will DO but what will happen around him.

Hello Amelia,

I?ve decided to focus on your statement of 'hygiene' because it touches on something which has been banging around in my head since my last post. The word hygiene reminded me of Virgo, which has been prodding me to ask some questions. Am I trying to link the 6th with work because of an unacknowledged link with the humility and service associated with Virgo? Maybe I have been committing the no-no frowned upon by ?traditional? astrologers by linking a sign with a house. But what about the astrology of Lilly and his times? Servants: feels like service-oriented Virgo. Small animals: the lowly swine and humble sheep feel like Virgo. Agricultural crops: we all know that Virgo is associated with harvest time in Europe where western astrology developed. ?Hygiene? may be your way of linking Virgo and the 6th?Virgo is associated with health, diet and hygiene. By accepting Lilly?s 6th house significations we just may be accepting the sign influence which has crept in on a house that we as traditionally-oriented astrologers dislike and disagree with.

It looks to me more and more that accretions of sign signification have encroached upon the 6th house, but it was long enough ago for us to accept it as ?traditional?. That seems to be the most likely explanation of the uncomfortable union of significations Lilly used for the 6th and the determination of weak planetary strength attributed to the 6th at a much earlier time.