i am sorry, but i am still not sold on the concept of profections..

i was looking at richard 11 king of england's chart last night -
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Ric ... of_England

if you run the profection for the year of his death - 1400 the profected ascendant lands in the sign of a benefic - jupiter - sag.. natally he has a venus/jupiter in the sign as well... i suppose someone will rationalize this away by saying venus rules his 8th.. the simplicity of saying - benefic rules the profection ascendant - good year, or malefic rules the profected ascendant - bad year - seems to ignore the reality on some obvious level..

i go back to what the old astrologers seem to have implied.. profections are a secondary tool to primary directions which are the main predictive tool. at this point, i continue to think placidus was right to ditch the use of profections and look for another alternative.

thoughts?

I am quite puzzled why Astrodatabank give this chart an AA rating. It seems quite controversial to me. The Astrodatabank sources for the King's birth time are contradictory. I would suggest a modern verified AA chart is the way to go for such research.

In a purely personal capacity (I am not the moderator here) I am a bit uncomfortable having to justify well established traditional techniques on this forum. I tend to feel such empirical challenges belong elsewhere.

Mark

is placidus traditional?

move the thread if someone is uncomfortable.. mark - you make a good point on the veracity of the chart..

james_m wrote:i am sorry, but i am still not sold on the concept of profections..

i was looking at richard 11 king of england's chart last night -
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Ric ... of_England

if you run the profection for the year of his death - 1400 the profected ascendant lands in the sign of a benefic - jupiter - sag.. natally he has a venus/jupiter in the sign as well... i suppose someone will rationalize this away by saying venus rules his 8th.. the simplicity of saying - benefic rules the profection ascendant - good year, or malefic rules the profected ascendant - bad year - seems to ignore the reality on some obvious level..

i go back to what the old astrologers seem to have implied.. profections are a secondary tool to primary directions which are the main predictive tool. at this point, i continue to think placidus was right to ditch the use of profections and look for another alternative.

thoughts?

Profections are not conceived to be a sole tool in any kind of delineation.

There's an array of other techniques (primary directions, firdar,distributors of the ASC/sect light/hyleg and their partners, Ptolemaic 'ages of man' - and all of these seen through the lenses of the solar chart for the year in question) which have to be considered as well so I'd say you're making it too simple by making such kind of a statement/posing such a question.

Btw, Jupiter/Venus conjunction is in itself a deadly combination (Valens), bringing together the ruler of the ascendant and the ruler of the 8th because Pises are destroyed by Libra i. e Jupiter by Venus and vice versa.

The conjunction just so happens to land in the 8th from POF as well - "a deadly place" so there's a strong accentuation of the principle! Hence,this can by no means be represented as an attempt to "rationalize things away"; there's some very solid astrological grounding to it. One just has to learn how to recognize it in a chart.

Benefics can and do kill when responsible for death especially if other testimonies for a certain year concur as well - otherwise people having benefics as rulers of the 8th would never die. So this example would actually represent a very convincing proof in favor of profections (assuming the time of birth is accurate in the first place).

The ancients would have us think and reason astrologically, not taking things out of context and in a a piece meal,superficial manner. Do they not also say than an afflicted benefic is worse than a dignified malefic? A year under auspices of a benefic may be termed good only in a very broad, general sense, taking only its essentially beneficent nature into account. As we all know/should know, there are many factors which can alter this benefice into its opposite.

Goran

good answer goran..

i was aware of venus connection to the 8th which i mentioned in my initial comment.. i was also aware of the position of the pof and venus/jupiter in the 8th of the pof, but glad you are articulating all this for others.. i am also aware of the fact that profections are not a stand alone tool, but that is good to emphasize here as well..

perhaps you can enlighten me on your general position with regard to the primary use of the solar revolution, as opposed to primary directions.. is this a mash'allah thing too? i recall a post you made on the general astrology board where the focus was on the solar revolution as well with no mention of primary directions..

it would seem based on your response that you think the AA rating for the chart is not too far off..

thanks
james

James_M wrote:

is placidus traditional?

Yes. Although not sure why you are asking that here. The placidus house system appears to have been used by the medieval Jewish astrologer/Rabbi Ibn Ezra although their use may pre-date him.

James-M wrote:

..move the thread if someone is uncomfortable.. mark .

I'm not posting in a moderator capacity here James so that kind of decision isn't up to me. Plus its no easy task to move a thread. I have never done it and I dont recall Tom ever doing it either.

Mark

thanks tom,

goran,

if you could comment on this question i directed at you in a previous post, that would be great.
thanks!
james

james_m wrote: perhaps you can enlighten me on your general position with regard to the primary use of the solar revolution, as opposed to primary directions.. is this a mash'allah thing too? i recall a post you made on the general astrology board where the focus was on the solar revolution as well with no mention of primary directions..
thanks
james

There are intercepted signs causing sign vs house confusion.
Move the ascendant in each house and the 34th ends up in the 10th.
Conjuncts mercury - Lord of the 4th and 7th.It is in the sign of fall of Jupiter- the 1st and 10th lord and further squared by Mars from Libra and 7th.

That makes it quite descriptive but not very traditional or acceptable.

PD