I recently came across a reference to the early medieval house system known as Albategnian for the first time.

I gather this system was developed by the great Arab Muslim astronomer, astrologer, and mathematician Abu Abdallah Mohammad ibn Jabir Al-Battani (858-929). Al-Battani is Latinized as Albategnius, Albategni or Albatenius

From secondary sources I understand this system divides the prime vertical into diurnal and nocturnal arcs that are then subdivided into equal parts by two declination circles. It has been suggested this this system may have been the foundation for the Placidean system.

I just wondered if anyone else had come across references to the Albategnian House System?

Thanks

Mark

Hi Mark,

Never heard of it, but the dividing of the prime vertical makes it sound similar to the "Campanus" system, doesn't it?

Gabe wrote:

Hi Mark,

Never heard of it, but the dividing of the prime vertical makes it sound similar to the "Campanus" system, doesn't it?

Good point. I got the reference from this web link. I haven't found any further details. I agree dividing up the prime vertical sounds more like a space based system like Campanus. I am not sure why the author thinks this system was the precursor to Placidus. I would have thought a time based system like Alcabitius was more influential.

http://www.metastudies.com/store/articl ... nita-burns

Mark

Mark wrote:...I understand this system divides the prime vertical into diurnal and nocturnal arcs that are then subdivided into equal parts by two declination circles. It has been suggested this this system may have been the foundation for the Placidean system.

I`m imagining I came across something about this. probably here. this dividing by declination circles sounds too familiar as a house idea I saw but never gathered up into something I could pack for remembering.

ye, I`ve posted that link in the What House System Do You Prefer topic. The other links don`t mention that house system. What would you like to do with it?

google will claim an Encyclopedia by Jame R Lewis contains the word Albategnian but then it doesn`t show up in a search

perhaps the google book is showing us alternate spellings
Albategan
Albategnio
Albategnianum
Albategnius
Albategnium
Albategnij?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu%E1%B8% ... 4%AB#Works

Al-Batt?n?'s major work is Kit?b az-Z?j, or the book of astronomical tables, also known as az-Z?j a?-??bi?. It was largely based on Ptolemy's theory, and other Greco-Syriac sources, while showing little Indian or Persian influence.[1][7] In his zij, he provided descriptions of a quadrant instrument.[8]
This book went through many translations to Latin and Spanish, including a Latin translation as De Motu Stellarum by Plato of Tivoli in 1116, which was later reprinted with annotations by Regiomontanus.[3] A reprint appeared at Bologna in 1645. The original MS. is preserved at the Vatican; and the Escorial library possesses in MS. a treatise of some value by him on astronomical chronology.[3]

Quadrant Instrument? lol
note 8: Moussa, Ali (2011). "Mathematical Methods in Ab? al-Waf??'s Almagest and the Qibla Determinations".

do you like languages?
otherwise it`s like a reverse engineering project with no model to try to fit it to. I can imagine lots of way to make houses... let`s pray I don`t succumb to that.

I gather from this the details are just beyond here-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zij
in this thing:
Az-Zij as-Sabi ? by Muhammad ibn J?bir al-Harr?n? al-Batt?n? (Albatenius) (853-929)

Probably makes more sense all around if we`re supposed to trisect the declinations of the MC and AS then find the ecliptic degree that matches.
Most descriptions of how-to make houses are like this:
barely a clue of what to do left in them.

Mark wrote:[...] I just wondered if anyone else had come across references to the Albategnian House System?

I know I've read of al-Battani in relation to house systems somewhere (North?), but I can't remember exactly, and haven't the time to follow it up. But the Metastudies web article does not seem very well-informed. Gabe is right: a division of the prime vertical into equal parts by means of great circles (they would not be 'declination circles') is what we call the Campanus system, which was known to al-Biruni and, a century later, to Adelard of Bath.

Hello Ariondys,

Sorry but your Google Books link was distorting the page size of the entire thread so I had to remove it. Google Books links always seem to do that.

Martin Gansten wrote:

I know I've read of al-Battani in relation to house systems somewhere (North?), but I can't remember exactly, and haven't the time to follow it up. But the Metastudies web article does not seem very well-informed. Gabe is right: a division of the prime vertical into equal parts by means of great circles (they would not be 'declination circles') is what we call the Campanus system, which was known to al-Biruni and, a century later, to Adelard of Bath.

As I previously stated here it does seem that Alcabitius is much more likely to be a precursor for Placidus than this system. Thanks for the reminder of North's book. I still haven't read this and the Warburg Institute have never reprinted it. I may check out a library copy of it as its likely to be my best source on the development of house systems. For anyone not familar with the book Martin referred to its called Horoscopes and History by J.D. North (1986) published by the Warburg Institute.

Mark

I have found this web link to John G. Savard's site which appears to offer a more sophisticated understanding of how the Albategnian system and numerous other house systems are derived astronomically:

Albategnus

This system uses parallels of declination to divide the prime vertical into parts, based on dividing the difference in declination between the east and west points and the Zenith into thirds. Then (apparently) great circles from the north point to the south point divide the sky and the eclipic.

http://www.quadibloc.com/other/as01.htm

Mark

Now it sounds exactly like Campanus. The thing is, should an author notice that, they would probably not need to describe it as a distinct house system. Leaves some options:
A) author doesn`t notice when 1 house system is identical to another.
B) author has attempted to clarify some garbled house description as best they can and end up altering it.

u could notice the link you originally put described Campanus as such

This system, adapted from an earlier Arabian system was devised in the 13th century by either astrologer/mathematician Giovanni Campano, or Johannes Campanus. No one is sure which was the original author. This is the house system favored by Sidereal astrologers.

adapted or adopted(named after oneself )

Albategnus

This system uses parallels of declination to divide the prime vertical into parts, based on dividing the difference in declination between the east and west points and the Zenith into thirds. Then (apparently) great circles from the north point to the south point divide the sky and the eclipic.

So instead of simply trisecting the prime vertical, we trisect the declination of the zenith point (the declination of the east/west points is always 0) and run small circles (parallels of declination) through the resulting points on the meridian to find out where they intersect the prime vertical, and then we run great circles through those points? Sounds unnecessarily complex to me... I can't visualize this with any precision, and haven't the time to do the maths, but it seems to me that the result will either be identical with or very close to the Campanus system. I wonder if this description can be quite accurate.

This system, adapted from an earlier Arabian system was devised in the 13th century by either astrologer/mathematician Giovanni Campano, or Johannes Campanus. No one is sure which was the original author.

Someone obviously isn't used to Latinized personal names. Was the first American president George Washington or Georgius Washingtonius? Nobody seems to know.