Hi Kirk,
You've really got me thinking and reading ( when I ought to be doing something else!)
My mention of hygiene factors was actually nothing to do with virgo but with mangement theory! Specifically Herzberg's 1955 The Motivation to Work which has satisfiers :Challenge, Responsibility, Achievement, Recognition, Advancement
and disatisfiers: Company policy, Working conditions, (Salary),
Peer relationships, Security

However I am inclined to agree with you that there seems to have been some migration of meanings going on. So I have reread Deb's articles on 6th house and virgo, (which I take to be as pure and traditional as possible) and actually concluded that the modern slippage is the other way- 6th house matters have become associated with virgo. e.g - the overlap on agriculture seems to have come from the fact that virgo is an earth sign and relates as you say to harvest. And there does not seem to be any reason that all employees would be virgos or vice versa! Actually I did some work on "bosses" a few years ago and Virgo bosses are good on company sustainability and long term growth because they tend to reject the Leo traits that seem to make for crash and burn scenarios, but they are still bosses and not servants even if they are more humble.
And sheep are almost never born under the sign of virgo; at least in the northern hemisphere :-).

I then thought a little more about how I view 6th and 12th houses and I view them as houses of masses of people- ie where individuality doesn't count and has no impact - kind of victim of circumstance effect. Whereas angles (10th 7th) are about the opportunity to impact or at least negotiate.

That's enough - I really really ought to be doing something else!!

Hi Kirk,

I felt that small animals were originally given to the 6th-12th axis because they were viewed as subordinate to the wills of their owners. (I must admit I don?t like assigning my pets to the 6th house, though I have done a lot of pet horaries using this signification and it has worked well.) I?m not sure if sign-influence creepage has occurred in this; I doubt it myself, but if it has, it?s been constrained by house related principles: for example why wouldn?t sheep be attributed to Aries, and then linked to 1st house matters? But that would obviously create a huge distortion of house meanings.

It?s very good that you are thinking your symbolism through like this. But at some point you need to make a decision about which approach is going to become part of your method. I can?t see any disadvantages in using the 10th house ruler for work questions: it?s traditionally supported, flexible enough to describe opportunities and restrictions and can incorporate 6th house relevances.

A reliable approach should be able to cover all the extreme cases of ?will I get the job?? from working as a domestic help to acceding the throne. There will be a problem in using the 6th house IF you feel that it is appropriate for humbling or mundane job opportunities but not for prestigious opportunities or positions of command.

All the best
Deb

Hi Deb,

Thanks for the reply. I have more thinking to do on this, but I like where it has taken me. I will be so bold as to add a few more words (groan). But you?re off the hook!?no need to reply. I will just speak to the world here.

I can see the 6th as ?job? and ?workplace??the environment in which we are under the direction and command of others. Even management has higher management to deal with. CEOs have the board and share holders. That would be the negative aspect of the 6th that I have gone on about. We, as Ascendant, may rather be gardening or out rowing on the river but reality dictates from the cadent 6th below the horizon that we need to submit a part of our life to earning an income, to supporting ourselves.

But the 6th is a beginning. It leads to 10th house glories. The 6th?s trine to the 10th would indicate what honor and public standing could come if we do more than merely work for the income. But many don?t. It?s common for factory workers, cocktail waitresses, shop clerks, and whatever else, to view what they do as just a job. They aren?t going to talk about it as their career or profession. Some might: those people are probably more aware of, or working toward, 10th house matters and striving in their way to attain them. The student who works for needed income while she takes classes probably has the 10th house goals in mind as she pursues her studies. However, her horary question as to whether she will get the perfect job she applied for which would provide good income, flexible hours during her student days, and little wasted traveling time due to proximity stands out to me as a 6th house question.

I wonder if I could beat a little bit more out of this? The 6th as the road to El Dorado, with a stopover at the Fountain of Youth in the 8th?

Hello to All--

I have to say that this has been a fascinating and informative discussion. I have always leaned towards using the 6th house--to me that just makes intuitive sense, but based on this discussion, I am seeing some valid reasons for using the 10th in employment related horaries. When reviewing the posts about the 10th house, I found myself thinking about the function of employment references in getting job. Of course, we pick references who will say good things about us--who make our best qualities "public", in a sense, and so help us to build a reputation, which is certainly a 10th house function.

That having been said, I certainly agree with the comments regarding waitresses etc. who tend to view their work as "just a job" rather than as a profession--thus bolstering the case for using the 6th house. I know of many people who consider their vocation or true calling to be something quite different from what they do to earn a living--in fact, it is not unusual for people to get "just a job" so that they can support their vocation. My late father, for instance, worked for years and years as a chemist for the US govt and yet he considered himself to be a musician and composer. He worked quite diligently at it, and self-published a great many musical compositions before his death. Similarly, my ex-husband's brother works as an administrative assistant, and yet he considers himself an artist. His work has been shown in many galleries and he has sold some pretty pricey pieces, in addition to having won many awards for his art. Nevertheless, he hangs in there with his steady job. Now that I am on the subject, a famous example of this job/vocation split is the American poet Wallace Stevens, who worked all his life as an attorney and yet was quite successful as a poet.

This line of thinking brings to mind another question. When someone asks, "Will I get the job?", should we perhaps take into account how the querent views the job? Certainly, the querent's state of mind has a lot to do with the core meaning of the question. For instance, if the querent is a student who needs a job to pay tuition, would we look at the sixth house because in his/her mind this position in not career but labor? On the other hand, if the querent is a corporate executive who is being considered for promotion to the Chairman of the Board, would we then look at the 10th house because he/she is clearly thinking of the question from the perspective of career advancement?

I have read that some astrologers use the 10th house for so-called "managerial" positions and the sixth house for all other types of jobs. Personally, I find this approach problematic. At what point does a job become "managerial"? Even so-called managers often have bosses who have bosses who have bosses--that's the corporate way.


Thanks again for all of your interesting commentary.

Hi Amethyst,

?For instance, if the querent is a student who needs a job to pay tuition, would we look at the sixth house because in his/her mind this position in not career but labor??

In all job-related questions we need to consider the 2nd house indications, and in this case - where money is the key motivating factor ? that?s especially important. I would still see the 10th house as the job being applied for, but I would expect the 10th house ruler to lack dignity. There might be a square between the 1st- and 10th house rulers, showing that the querent gets the job but doesn?t really enjoy it, nor feel comfortable in the reputation that goes with it. The chart could also show how long this position will be held: whether it is more short or long term than the querent expected; and the location of fortunate significators would show areas where greater potential lies. Plus, of course, any connection with the 6th house or its ruler is one of the ways to show that the position involves hard work and little recognition. I would be very surprised if there weren?t any 6th house connections in this kind of chart.

My son spent a couple of years working in a cake factory, for the reasons you mentioned. He now has funding for his PhD studies but ? for a couple of years at least ? even though he was driven by grander ambitions, his professional status was still lowly: a struggling student working part-time in a cake factory where he had to wear what he called a woman?s hair-net. The significance of a horary doesn?t last forever, it?s only relevant to the focus of concern at that time. I can?t imagine he would ever have asked ?will I get the cake factory job??; it would have been more ?should I take this job for the money?? ? and in that case I think it?s more a case of weighing up the indications of financial improvement against any obvious signs of dissatisfaction and job-related misery.

Of course every chart is unique, so its best to keep some flexibility in approach, but I agree very much with your last comment.

Deb

Deb,

This is awkward. You know vastly more than I do?our knowledge doesn?t even compare. But my disagreement with you on this is getting stronger. I don?t know where it comes from, but it?s there.

In all job-related questions we need to consider the 2nd house indications, and in this case - where money is the key motivating factor ? that?s especially important.

Yes. And when money is the motivating factor we may need to do that which we don?t want to do and which places us under the direction and supervision of others. The need for money is the master and we must do as it says. The 2nd house is money; the 6th house is where we are placed in life because of it. That brings us back to the cadent 6th house which lacks an aspect to the Ascendant where we shine as ourselves. We are servants to our need for money, an income. We need to apply for the position and income we want. We must ask for it.
?Money as key motivating factor?(in reference to the student who needs an income)?what position of strength is that for a person? Need, and what we need to do to fulfill it, is the master here. A strong Ascendant and 10th house can easily fly out the window. The cadent 6th shows that we have a master?monetary need.

Plus, of course, any connection with the 6th house or its ruler is one of the ways to show that the position involves hard work and little recognition.

So why not just start with the 6th? Is it even realistic to start with the 10th, the culmination? ?Hard work and little recognition? sounds like servants to me. 10th house aspirations as goals for the future require living one?s fate as a servant or ?small animal? for the present until the big moment comes, if it does. Once again!?the 6th is the start, the doorway. Recognition (10th) comes after a job (6th) well done. Even George W. Bush had to convince party insiders and the public that he was the man they wanted. His ?job? of convincing them and selling the party line was well done and he got the position of power. The 6th house humble kissing of backsides brought 10th house renown.

And that?s the disagreement of a not-so-young student. (There could be more to come.)

Kirk

You being ?not-so-young, and me being, as I like to think of it ?not-so-old? at least brings us close together on something

Do you agree that the 10th house is the social standing and professional status generally? Without that I doubt we?ll get very far to unite our views. If you do, then when you say:

The need for money is the master and we must do as it says. The 2nd house is money; the 6th house is where we are placed in life because of it.

- opens up a relevant point. Where we are placed in life is our ?social standing? and that is usually defined by the work we do at that time (which is all a horary is focussed upon, unlike a natal chart which has all the future potential to consider as well). My son, the budding mathematical genius, did not feel himself to be empowered by his potential when he was drudging home from the cake factory. Because his work was lowly so was his professional status at that time, so were all the things that are tied into this: such as the boundaries of his potential pay or the ability to walk around in designer suits or have people do what he says just because he says it.

At a philosophical level you can argue a good case for the 6th house with menial jobs; but you could just as easily argue that if you really, really hate the work, if it wasn?t of your choosing and it makes you feel like a slave, it should be a 12th house affair. And then the job can start to appear everywhere - if it opens your mind it?s 9th house; if it ties you to the home it?s 4th house, if you really love it and enjoy it, its 5th house. In reality all of these connections are valid and I have noticed over and over that people who work in the arts or creative fields have their 10th house rulers in the 5th house or vice versa. But if someone asks about the prospect of a creative interest as a professional endeavour, it becomes a 10th house matter because the enquiry is focussed upon that interest as a current professional concern. Motivation is shown descriptively by the placement of the significator, it?s never ignored, but it?s part of what has led to the query and not usually the answer in itself.

Sorry if I keep feeding you reasons to see it completely differently. That really isn?t my intention

Sorry if I keep feeding you reasons to see it completely differently. That really isn?t my intention

Deb,

That is fortunate because your utter failure at doing so would be frustrating and disappointing for you.

Do you agree that the 10th house is the social standing and professional status generally?

Social standing?always. Professional standing?yes, if there is even an issue of professional standing. We as social beings must have some sort of social standing and position in the society we live in. We can?t avoid it?we live in the society. In that respect the 10th house always has something for all of us. But we may or may not have or want (or need) professional status?that is optional. We can decide if we want it or not. If that is an issue for us, then the 10th takes on that meaning for us. If we just want a job for the income that life requires we look to the 6th. But such a mere worker can look to the 10th for matters concerning her impact on her society through the volunteer work she does or the leadership in his neighborhood that he provides.

This is as far as I can go for the moment - my brilliance comes and goes. That water thing, you know.

Hello All--

I've been thinking all week about the issues raised in this forum. This discussion is really about the nature of the quesited--what governs how the quesited is defined. When someone asks about getting a job, they could be asking about lots of diferent things-- for instance, they might want to know if their social status will change (10th house) or they might want to know whether they will be doing a specific type of task (6th house). Or they might want to know if they'll be coming into more money (2nd house). So it seems to me that it is essential to understand what exactly is in the querent's mind before determining how to go about answering the question.

I am reminded of an article I read in which the astrologer (I can't remember who, or I'd give the reference) discussed the process for answering horaries about moving to a new location. She had once had a client who asked "will I move"? The client, as it turned out, was dating a man and she really wanted to know if the two of them would be moving in together. Hence, the question was really about the prospect for success of her romance, and not about where she might end up living, and the resulting horary reflected these issues.

I do believe that what one does for a living determines, to a certain extent, how we are treated socially. I have experienced this directly, since I have at various points had low level jobs for which I was over-qualified. Even though my bosses knew that, in terms of my intelligence and abilities, I was on the same level as they, they usually did not treat me that way, and I found that to be tremendously frustrating. Nevertheless, in today's world, I do not think most people think first and foremost about social status when they think about their job. I don't think I have ever met someone who says they want a particular job so they can lord it over everyone else, and be someone big and important. They are interested primarily in the issues of money, and whether the work environment will be tolerable. In my own case, my primary concern is exactly that--will I get the salarly I need, and will I find some work that won't bore me out of my skull.

I've developed my own theory about the 6th House; the core principle I see there is "maintaining the physical environment." The most immediate physical environment of course is the body. After that, the outer physical environment upon which we rely for food, sustenance, comfort, shelter, etc.

These environments consist of matter. It is in the nature of matter that it is imperfect; things go wrong with it; things break down; therefore things require fixing. These "fixers" are given to the 6th House - fixers of the body (doctors) and fixers of other things that go wrong (mechanics) - the people we hire to do the things we dont wish to do - or would rather not do - or actually dont have the skill or know-how to do. Or we dont want to get our hands dirty! Or the tasks are boring and menial and we'd rather be doing something more interesting or fun. So we pay others to do them: to do the "work."

Thus the work of the 6th House is usually unattractive. But it must be done. It is necessary, if we want our physical environment to be well-maintained and comfortable, and for our lives to carry on smoothly and happily.

Because of the way society is structured we have a "working class," and tradesmen, who do a lot of the work that many of us would not wish to do. But that's only because of our social and economic system. Imagine a different society, based on more communistic principles, where 6th House work (as defined above - the demands and needs of the physical environment), was shared more evenly. Then, say, if we enjoy having our electricity, and the electricity generators break down, we might ALL have to pitch in and help fix. We would be brought into contact with the physical environment in a more immediate way. In this society, if my power fails, (an unfortunate 6th House problem of my environment) I would call the electrician, or the power company, who employ skilled "workers" to fix the problem. The responsibility is shifted from me to them.

However if I'm driving on a country road at night and my car breaks down, and my AA memebership has run out, and I have no phone to call the mechanic...and I have to do the best I can myself with the tools in my car...I'm having a typical, unavoidable, 6th House experience! And there's no "fixer" around me to take the experience away...

After a brilliant presentation of my brilliant ideas, I?ve changed my mind.

I?ve been studying up on Whole-Sign Houses and this old topic came to mind. In reviewing the thread to see if Whole-Sign Houses were mentioned, (I got lazy and only skimmed), I came across this from Deb on Oct. 26th:

Do you agree that the 10th house is the social standing and professional status generally?

Maybe it shouldn?t be. If we release the MC from the 10th house cusp and let it float, we end up with a point that becomes an indicator point for such things as social standing and professional status. The 10th house can still be the place of work, with its above-the-earth angularity to the first house indicating our actions in the larger, social world.

The 10th for work; the MC for social standing. This takes care of the problem I had with equating noncareer-oriented work with the 10th house and MC. Honors, prestige, standing, etc. don?t need a whole house, a point will do. The 10th can be the place of work and the MC and its house position can serve as an indicator of success and standing in the world from whatever house it?s located in. It makes the MC more useful and informative. The MC can also be what we aspire to do rather than the 10th house job we need to do. For example, in this way we don?t need to use the 6th in the case of a student who works while going to school for the future career. The 10th can be the student?s job and the MC can be the future career.

I suppose the people who use the Equal House system have been saying this sort of thing about the MC for years. They probably have been on to something, but I can?t go for the idea of splitting up the signs with the Asc. degree for house cusps.

Well, I do find this an interesting take on this subject. However, I have to say that I have never been a fan of Equal Houses precisely because that system really de-emphasizes the angles of the chart. For instance, identifying planets in Gauquelin sectors becomes much more difficult if you are using Equal or Whole sign houses.

When I started this thread last fall, I was firmly in the job=6th house camp. I have been looking for a job for quite sometime, and in the past few months have had the opportunity to observe many horaries, plus various return and event charts that have been pertinent to my job search. I did finally find a job, which I am starting tomorrow--the horary I cast for this job was truly interesting, and someday when I have time I will post it with a discussion of my take on it.

Based on my personal experience of the past few months, I have to say that both the 6th house and the 10th house have things to tell us about the work we do. For job-related horaries, I think the astrologer really needs to look at both to get the complete picture. In my own personal horaries and return charts, the 6th and 10th cusps have both been activated of late. In the job search process, our accomplishments are on display for others to evaluate (10th house) to determine whether we are competent to perform certain tasks under certain working conditions (the sixth house side of it).

Thanks for an interesting discussion.