I have some insights of my own regarding this chart but before I share those I want to offer links to just some of the plethora of popular astrological articles on this nativity in the British press. It seems for once newspaper astrologers are allowed to step out of the straightjacket of Sun sign columns.

I imagine this is only tipping our toes in the ocean of astrological features on this birth. Most of it is light , frothy and uncontroversial. However, some like Marjorie Orr seem willing to court controversy with less sycophantic analysis. Kudos to her for that.

Marjorie Orr in astrology.com
http://www.astrology.com/hrh-baby-cambr ... d-d-542393


Patrick Arundell (astrologer for the Daily Telegraph)
http://www.patrickarundell.com/blog/roy ... horoscope/

Jonathan Cainer in the Daily Mail
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... holds.html

Russell Grant in the Daily Mirror
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/royal-baby ... er-2079261

Mystic Meg in the Sun
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... scope.html

Kosmic Kelly in Astro.com
http://www.astrology.com/queen-and-baby ... d-d-542571


Kelly Cambers Astro.com
http://www.astrologynet.com/close-look- ... icles%3ADM

An Indian astrologer look at the chart through the Nakshatras or Lunar Mansions
http://starwheel.wordpress.com/2013/07/ ... astrology/

Indian Astrologers predict a role for the Prince in elected politics
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/07/23 ... oyal-baby/

A BBC short film on the view of a Chinese Ba Zi astrologer in Hong Kong
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-23433083

I have saved the most interesting for last which for me is Marjorie Orr?s website posts rather than a newspaper pop astrology features above.
She is still Britain?s most insightful popular astrologer in my view. Because of the unusual way Marjorie arranges her website its not possible to do straightforward links to the relevant pieces so I have copied them here.

Royal baby - lucky with money, rebellious in love From: Marjorie. (22 Jul 2013 20:36):

This is only a first glance - Royal baby boy born 4.24pm London this afternoon. He is a final degree and almost final minute of a degree Sun Cancer opposition a Capricorn Moon - so a Full Moon baby which usually suggests two very different parents, almost incompatible, can be a split parental marriage though not necessarily so since KateM has a Full Moon. Will never quite know what he wants.

Both Sun and Moon square onto 12th house Saturn in Scorpio so an over rigid, rather chilly childhood and experiences of both parents as Saturnine. That looks depressive later in life.

A secretive Scorpio Ascendant and a 9th house Venus in Virgo - so the possibility of a foreign bride way ahead. His Sun is also 9th house so widely travelled, a communicator and a thinker. An emphasised Uranus in 5th hints at a wild romantic life. Saturn in the 12th not too practical. Heavy concentration on the financial houses 8th/2nd. Certainly lucky in inheriting largesse from previous generations with Jupiter in 8th though also obsessive about keeping control. Siblings will be a comfort. Water Grand Trine - tending to live a very protected inner life, not easy to get to know.
A complicated chart.


HRH Junior - finding an outlet for an ocean of water From: Marjorie. (23 Jul 2013 09:39):

HRH Prince Junior does have a complicated chart and personality. It is an overwhelmingly - overloadedly -emotional watery chart. He has a Cancer Sun plus Jupiter Mars Mercury in Cancer in the 8th trine Saturn North Node in Scorpio in the 12th trine Neptune Chiron in Pisces. Two of the legs of that Water Grand Trine sit in Water houses, the 8th and 12th and Pisces rules the other Water house, the 4th.

So never mind the secretive Scorpio Ascendant, he'll be hugely self-protective since his sensitivity to the real world will be acute. So there's a risk of him living in his own bubble and refusing to connect with the outside world. Water Grand Trines even on their own can be escapist and overly dependent and he has it in triplicate. However Water is in addition to being creative also a force for healing since there's usually a well-developed empathy for others' suffering.

What is a saving grace - since he could be a massively introverted personality - is the enthusiastic 9th house (feel of Sagittarius) Sun which will be motivated to travel, and interested in foreign countries and cultures plus a bucket load of Cardinal planets which are spilling over with initiative.

All three legs of the Grand Trine are in hard aspect to other planets which will also help jolt him out of his cocoon. Neptune opposes a 9th house Venus in Virgo which will give an interest and talent in art as well as travel. Jupiter Mars Mercury also oppose a 2nd house Pluto so financial matters will be of considerable interest, indeed a minor obsession.
And Saturn in Scorpio squares onto the Full Moon of Cancer Sun and Capricorn Moon. Saturn in the 12th can be lonely and depressive and that is tripled up being square both Sun and Moon suggesting less than supportive or nurturing both parents. Hmm mind you that is less likely to pull him out of himself and more likely to push him deeper into seclusion at times.

His Mercury Mars Jupiter opposition Pluto also squares Uranus in Aries in the 5th - he could harbour secret desires to be a rock star! A 5th house Uranus is wild and wayout, tends to disregard convention where love and sex are concerned and can be unlucky in speculation. He could promote a radical agenda where children are concerned since he'll be keen on their freedom, which he looks as if he isn't getting much of personally.
His Venus is inconjunct his Moon - marginally similar to Prince William's Venus inconcjuncts - so strain fitting in socially.

He'll be daydreamy with Moon and Neptune in his 3rd and inclined to either over talk trivia or find it difficult to express what he really wants to say especially at an everyday level.
So six planets in Water, three in Earth which will help ground him. No Air so he'll have problems detaching from his feelings to see things coolly. Only one Fire sign so lacking in trust in life.

He will have a great deal to give in terms of helping others if he gets his psychological issues sorted out. But he'll have his problems along the way emotionally since it is not an easy chart.

He has a strong get-it-together 5th Harmonic; creative tho' manic 7H; breakthrough/genius 13H; making-mark-on-history 17H; and super-star 22H.
He'll meet the love of his life when he is 30, probably a foreigner as his Progressed Sun is conjunct his Venus then.

HRH Prince Windsor - rocking the family boat From: Marjorie. (23 Jul 2013 09:40):
The baby's enthusiastic Mars Jupiter is conjunct Prince William's New Moon in Cancer which is a good cross over with Junior's Sun falling in William's 8th house so a deep connection. Jnr's Saturn is conjunct Will's Midheaven so he'll make him more serious, at times dampening Will's enthusiasm. It won't always be easy since Jnr's maverick Uranus is in opposition to Will's Mars Saturn and Jnr's Pluto is opposition Will's New Moon and square his Mars Saturn. So some teenage tantrums and power struggles coming up.

Their relationship chart has an affectionate composite Sun Venus conjunction though that does square a 4th house Moon opposition Saturn in the 10th - so work and duty pressures will get in the way of fun. That cold Moon opposition Saturn is also trine/sextile an 8th house composite Mars - so underlying aggravations, maybe over money. Plus a one-upmanship composite Jupiter square Pluto so both trying to outdo the other.

His relationship with his mother is more starkly Saturnine with a composite Sun Saturn opposition Moon Mercury, sextile/trine Mars. So too many rules and regulations, not enough indulgence.

Jnr's Saturn is also conjunct Kate's Jupiter so he'll again bring a more serious dutiful mood into her life which she may find repressive at times.
If her birth time of 11.30 am is about right then Jnr's Pluto is in her 10th and also the composite Pluto is in their joint 10th - so again a struggle for power and control.

Jnr's Scorpio Ascendant falls conjunct Prince Charles' Scorpio Sun so a good connection from that with a fun and adventurous composite Venus Sun Mars in the composite 12th - so in private very amiable.

Of the other grandparents:- Carole M's relationship chart with Jnr is tricky with a bleak, rigid composite Sun Mercury opposition Pluto Saturn which doesn't look too relaxing. Grandpa MichaelM is marginally better with a laid-back composite Sun square Jupiter.

His arrival is certainly going to shift the dynamic somewhat all round.

hi mark,
thanks for starting this thread and offering a great overview on a number of astrological comments on the baby. i really appreciate seeing marjories work more highlighted as she is really a great astrologer and more astrologers would benefit from knowing about her. i am super busy at present but plan on commenting myself when i get a chance in a few days. cheers james

Hello Mark,

the thread you created here is really a pleasure to read and to look at.

Johannes

Hi James & Johannes,

Glad you are enjoying the thread.

Mark

I would like to share an important chart with you all, which I have researched, which I dont believe any astrologer has ever previously highlighted before in regards the British royal family.

This is the chart for the House of Windsor dynasty which dates back to 1917.

The House of Windsor is the royal house of the United Kingdom and the other Commonwealth realms. It was founded by King George V by royal proclamation on 17 July 1917, when he changed the name of his family from the German Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (a branch of the House of Wettin) to the English Windsor, due to the anti-German sentiment in the British Empire during World War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Windsor

While this may seem a just a simple change of nomenclature it also symbolised the birth of a distinctly British royal family which self consciously severed all its European associations. The modern notion of a 'British Royal Family' really originated with this proclamation.

Several years ago I spent a lot of time trying to unearth the actual time of this proclamation.

We do know that at a meeting of the Privy Council on 17 July 1917, George V declared that 'all descendants in the male line of Queen Victoria, who are subjects of these realms, other than female descendants who marry or who have married, shall bear the name of Windsor'. This was issued that day as a proclamation in the London Gazette.

Like all such proclamations it appeared in the London Gazette and was distributed in locations across the Kingdom. I contacted the publication offices to try to track down when this might have been sent out but they have no records of this.

I have therefore displayed an unverified chart with a noon time. Its still an extremely useful chart nonetheless. In this instance it may actually approximate to when the proclamation was issued.

Its highly unlikely, this was simply sprung on the privy council that day since the King will have discussed such an important step with the Prime Minister beforehand at their weekly meeting. I tend to think the proclamation was all agreed beforehand the privy council meeting was only a formality to rubber stamp this. So I suspect the proclamation was ready to go out beforehand.

Here is the actual proclamation which brought the House of Windsor into existence:

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/30186/pages/7119

Here is the chart with a 12 Noon time on 17.07.1917:
The crest of the House of Windsor is below:
Looking at solar arc directions the 12:00 time actually works very well and responds closely to events. For example the abdication crisis in 1936. When Edward VIII abdicated the British throne on 10th December 1936 the radix Moon was directed to the radix Sun within 5 arc minutes. At the death of George VI converse solar arc ASC square Jupiter, and converse SA Sun on Mars. At the time of the death of Princess Diana in 1997 the radix Moon had directed by solar arc to a square of the radix Mars. I will not labour the point here. Check it out yourself.

As one might expect prominent members of the British royal family usually have powerful connections to the House of Windsor chart Excellent examples are Prince George, his father Prince William and Princess Diana. Queen Elizabeth II has her natal Saturn on her natal MC which is trine the House of Windsor chart Sun. The ill fated Edward VIII had his Sun near the Windsor Moon but his Mars was square the Windsor MC ruler/Moon and his nodal axis was in a tight square to the pivotal Windsor Moon.

Below is a bi-wheel with the House of Windsor chart in the inner wheel and chart for Prince George on the outer wheel.
Examining Prince George's chart several of the connections between his chart and the House of Windsor chart are not exactly easy. He has his natal ASC ruler Mars (in fall) in Cancer conjunct the Windsor Moon. His Mars is square the Windsor ASC and his Capricorn Moon is opposing the Windsor Mercury (Lord 9 and 12). His Sun is conjunct the Windsor Mercury (Lord 9 and 12). His Jupiter is square the Windsor ASC. More positively, His Saturn is trine the Windsor Moon and of course Jupiter is also conjunct the Windsor Moon. His Mars is antiscion the Windsor Sun. His Moon is contra-antiscion the Windsor Jupiter. Pluto on the North Node of the Windsor chart at his time of birth.

Another point I should note is the strong link between the House of Windsor chart and the 1801 chart for Great Britain and Ireland. For example the ASC and other angles are in a tight conjunction in the same signs.

I think I may open a thread in future to discuss this chart in more depth. In the meantime I will leave you all to explore further for yourselves.

Mark

I see two things:

1)The SN of the house of windsor sits on Prince George's cancer stellium, which includes the exalted Jupiter(compare the detriment(al) Jupiter in H.O.W proclamation)

2)

All Notices and Advertisements should reach the Office of The London Gazette, Imperial House,
Kingsway, London, W.C. 2, before 2 p.m. on the day previous to publication. Notices and
Advertisements received after that time will be inserted, if circumstances permit, on payment of
a late fee for each Notice or Advertisement at the following rates
Up to 5 p.m. on the day previous to publication ... ... ,.. 5s.
Up to noon on the day of publication ... ... ... '... 10s.
Up to 2 pm. on the day of publication 20?.

If the Gazette can accept advertisements upto 2PM on the date of publication,then, the publication time would be between 2PM-5PM(end of bureaucratic office time.)

Take it to be 5PM DST and you have the exact imprint of the Royal baby's horoscope but this time with exalted Jupiter.
http://tinypic.com/r/21j7yv5/5

PD

Pankajdubey wrote:

If the Gazette can accept advertisements upto 2PM on the date of publication,then, the publication time would be between 2PM-5PM(end of bureaucratic office time.)

Take it to be 5PM DST and you have the exact imprint of the Royal baby's horoscope but this time with exalted Jupiter.

Well spotted! I am most grateful for your help. Here is the relevant page from the London Gazette giving its publishing conditions in the edition from 17/07/1917

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/30186/pages/7187

Although due to the directions for various historical events I would incline to an earlier rather than a later estimate of when the London Gazette went out that day. As I am sure you are well aware we need to look at more than one chart or event to rectify this. Making the estimated time fit comfortably with Prince George's chart is hardly the objective. I plan to research this further to find the best rectified time.

Thank you

Mark

Pankajdubey wrote:

I do not think this would be the end of monarchy but if you look at his exalted Jupiter not being consistent with Protestantism, he may dissociate the Monarchy from the head of the Church.

I go along with this train of thought for different reasons.

Its logical that those using Placidus or indeed a quadrant system focus on 8th house matters here. However, like many I work primarily with whole sign houses so the focus of this chart thereby shifts very strongly to 9th house matters with stellium of 4 planets in Cancer (9th WSH).

I do acknowledge Pankajdubey's research indicating the last monarch with an exalted Jupiter in Cancer was the Roman Catholic James II in the 17th century. However, I have quite different reasons based on traditional astrology for thinking he will change his faith or raise issues around this during his reign.

Medieval astrologers believed a cardinal sign on the 9th house indicated the person would convert to a different religion or faith during their life. Malefics in the 9th were an indicator of a heretic or even an atheist. Of course what denomination a 'heretic' was depended on where you lived in Europe! In Roman Catholic countries the heretics were Protestants while in Protestant Europe the Roman Catholics were those who swam against the religious tide.

In addition here we have the ASC ruler in Mars in fall. Rather than interpret this as simply a 'weakness' I prefer to see this as a Mars that expresses itself in an unconventional way in relation to 9th house issues. It is conjoined to the natural significator of faith (Jupiter) which is exalted in Cancer. Mercury also falls in the 9th. So religion or belief issues are likely to be very important to this person.

I think there is a significant amount of testimony here to indicate that this person will be attracted to another faith and will turn away quite strongly and publicly from the established Anglican one. It could be Roman Catholicism or even more controversially Islam or humanism/atheism.

I see him ultimately being attracted to a more austere less liberal religion or becoming an atheist/humanist rather than remaining an Anglican.

Why?

1 Scorpio rising

2 Mars in the 9th in fall

3 Saturn in the 1st (WSH)

4 Moon in Capricorn is Lord 9 (WSH)

5 Sun is the Sect light in the 9th WSH disposited by Moon (in Capricorn)

6 Sect light (Sun) in the 9th WSH opposed by Lord 9 (Moon)

7 Jupiter in the 9th WSH trine Saturn in the 1st WSH

8 Moon (lord 9) applying to out of sign square to Saturn

I dont rule out this being required by his wanting to marry a non-Anglican since Mercury is in the 9th here and disposits Lord 7 Venus in Virgo.

Lets remember this person is unlikely to become King until the middle of the 21st century. By that time the religious culture of Britain will likely have changed beyond all recognition. Christianity may well no longer be the majority faith in Britain by this time as Islam may well have overtaken it in number of followers. Even today the number of practising Christians who attend church at least once a month is only about 10% of the population. Most of the self declared Christians in England (59%) are already completely nominal.

Moreover the secular, non-religious population of Britain is expanding at a rapid rate.

Arguably, the issue of disestablishment of the Churuch of England is already long overdue. While less than 2% of the population attend Anglican services estimates of the nominal Anglican population vary from 20-35% of the UK population. However, the nominal Anglican population is steadily declining.

The issue is integrally tied to the Act of Settlement which requires the UK monarch to be Head of the Church of England. As part of the royal coronation service they are required to be the 'Defender of Faith' for the protestant Anglican Church in England and Church of Scotland in Scotland. Anyone who becomes a Roman Catholic, or who marries a Roman Catholic, becomes disqualified to inherit the throne under the Act of Settlement.

Changes to this act can of course be made. For example there was a recent alteration to the royal succession rights which mean that the first child of either gender can inherit the throne. Had the royal couple had a girl instead of a boy she would have been the next in line to the throne after her father.

So in theory the Act of Settlement could be altered too to remove the discriminatory clauses affecting Roman Catholics. However, this is considerably more complicated for three reasons:

1.Legislating for alterations to the Act of Settlement is a complex process, since the Act is a common denominator in the shared monarchy of all the 16 Commonwealth realms (for example this includes Australia, Canada , New Zealand, Jamaica etc). The Statute of Westminster in 1931 acknowledges by established convention that any changes to the rules of Act of settlement incorporated into the Commonwealth realm laws must be only with the agreement of all of the states involved, with concurrent amendments to be made by each state's parliament or parliaments. Such a meeting was held in Australia in 2011 with all the 16 Commonwealth realms government leaders present. At the meeting it was agreed that n the succession rules for a Commonwealth monarch would be changed to allow the first born child of either gender (not just the first male) could inherit the throne.

At this meeting David Cameron defended this change to gender rights on the basis of equality. However, he seemed sanguine about retaining the implicit religious discrmination inherent in the Act of Settlement. At the Commonwealth realms Conference David Cameron stated:

"Let me be clear, the monarch must be in communion with the Church of England because he or she is the head of that Church."

2. This links to the second problem with altering the Act of settlement. In a nutshell it would require the total disestablishment of the Church of England. The Church has certain rights as the 'national religion' of England such as the right to have Bishops in the House of Lords. There would be likely strong opposition within sections of the Church of England. This was done in Wales in 1920 but it would be a much larger undertaking in England.

3. Thirdly, disestablishment would represent an epoch changing symbolic transformation in Britain as it would cease to be constitutionally either Protestant, Christian or even a religious state. For that reason many Christian and even some Muslims still favour a symbolically Christian monarchy over a more secular monarchy.

Not surpringly politicians have steered clear of such battles. Will disestablishment happen in the era George as King? Yes if it doesn't happen beforehand.

Socially, the stance of David Cameron looks a little like King Canute holding back the rise of secular and multi-faith modern Britain.

I personaly, think Prince Charles may want to tackle this issue if he ever becomes King. Several decades ago he expressed a wish to be 'defender of faiths' rather than just the Anglican faith. However, the problem is that even that stance is not so popular with a lot of secular Britains today who would prefer some kind of non-religious coronation service.

However, unlike her European counterparts Queen Elizabeth II seems to have no inclination to ever abdicate. If she lives another 10 years its debateable whether Prince Charles will still want to be King in his mid 70s.

If disestablishment does not happen in the reign of Charles or William it will be almost imperative by the time George ascends the throne.

This all assumes the monarch is still popular at that point and a Republic has not come about. The monarchy is going through a very high peak of popularity just now but history proves this will not last. Charles is clearly a lot less popular than his Mother. It is likely he could alienate a lot of opinion against the monarchy. William seems a 'safe pair of hands' but who knows? A sex scandal could change all such assumptions. Like his Mother he does have Venus on Algol.

George will ultimately be a controversial figure in religious matters and may strongly divide public opinion. His conversion to either Catholicism or another faith would initiate nothing less than a complete constitutional crisis if the anachronism of the Act of Settlement and the disestablishment of the C of E has been left unaltered until his reign. The same would apply if his prospective wife was Roman Catholic. Ironically, there is no such legal bar on him marrying a Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist!

Naturally the symbolism of this uber strong 9th house could also fit the legal issues that would be pivotal with either disestablishment of the C of E or the creation of Republic inevitably would bring.

I doubt I will be around long enough to check if any of this comes to pass but it will be something for the younger amongst you to look out for.

Mark

thanks for those who have shared their thoughts on the royal babies chart and drawing attention to astrological comments elsewhere on the new born child.

i suppose the grand water trine involving saturn and neptune mixed directly with mars has a feel of renunciation to it which might indicate a disinclination towards assuming command of any possibility towards the throne. bob mentioned this trine in his opening comments. mars/neptune = midheaven and saturn by midpoint. saturn in a close 45 to midheaven from the 12th gives more of the same. it's interesting to compare the present queen elizabeth with retro saturn in scorpio conjunct the midheaven.

william and kates marriage chart for 11:20am has 5 leo rising squared by george's saturn. there are many interesting astro connections to make with these multiple charts.

depending on which house system one likes to use the full moon in the 3rd and 9th sign from the ascendant would seem to emphasize some type of religious theme. i think this is further emphasized via the close 120/60 aspect to ascendant as well. i have enjoyed mark and pankajdubeys comments in this direction. sect ruler is the sun.. venus is the first triplicity ruler. venus is in mutual reception with mercury which is part of the cluster of planets in cancer while venus in the 9th house as well if you use quadrant houses rules the 7th, so the idea of marrying a foreigner makes sense on a few levels. i am reflecting some of the ideas already brought forth by others.

tony louis's comments were interesting. i love how vague they were and how gracious he was in giving data that put an approx 7 year window on the use of primary directions bringing together the ascendant and 8th house ruler.. it hinges on one's particular choices for doing primary directions! perhaps because no one is really working with primary directions as they have only been reintroduced recently, or they are unwilling to share there work openly - regardless - it really defeats the concept of making any kind of prediction with a time frame this wide..

here is my thinking on the question tony poses. i note a 7 degree distance between a few planets in the royal babies chart. mars to mercury being the one that instigated this inquiry. ascendant to neptune being another approx 7 degree gap, chiron to the angle of the earth being another one.. jupiter/mars to uranus square is another approx 7 degree gap. that would push out to the year 2020 using the idea of 'a degree per year' which although not the same as solar arc directions, is similar. if one looks at the solar return for the royal baby for 2020 one will note a few important connections from the natal chart to the solar return chart, in particular the placement of saturn conjunct the sun/moon opposition in the babies chart.

it got me to thinking about different set ups in the parents and grandparents charts. i wish i had an accurate time for kate. in the absence, i like an afternoon time with her ascendant close to williams sun/moon conjunction. at any rate, one can note the mars/saturn in libra in both parents charts with about a 1 degree conjunction between each others mars at 9 - 10 libra area in turn square little georges mercury.. the ''malefic'' focus from a derivative house point of view is on williams solar 4th and kates lunar 4th. in williams chart mars rules the 12th and 5th using whole sign houses. i see some significant change in the royal dynamic that impacts george come 2020. while i can't pinpoint the nature of the event, i think it has to do with his mom directly.

i tend to view the full moon as the most interesting characteristic of georges chart with moon applying to sun, while the sun applies to saturn. the question that bob raised about sexual preference was an interesting one. uranus in the 5th making a close 135 to the ascendant and squaring onto mars/mercury in cancer makes sense especially if one puts the planets in the 8th. i tend to make an association with death and sex, so i think saturn in the 8th sign, 12th house also puts an emphasis on a particular type of challenge for the child growing up with all these different set ups overlapping and having some type of connection with each other.

one last comment. i think harry is the most likely to take over the throne. his chart is similar to his grandmothers with saturn conjunction midheaven in scorpio while capricorn rises.. 1st house ruler on the midheaven basically sums it up. his is a day chart as well with jupiter rising. all in all i think he takes over the job, but i don't know where he comes in relation to ascending to the mantle of king or queen.. the transit of saturn to williams midheaven which coincides with the birth of his son george is as close as he gets..

James_M wrote:

sect ruler is the sun.. venus is the first triplicity ruler. venus is in mutual reception with mercury which is part of the cluster of planets in cancer while venus in the 9th house as well if you use quadrant houses rules the 7th, so the idea of marrying a foreigner makes sense on a few levels. i am reflecting some of the ideas already brought forth by others.

I agree the idea of a foreign partner would fit very well here. By WSH Mercury in the 9th house is the dispositor of Venus (Lord 7) and natural significator of relationships. Don?t see a proper mutual reception between these planets though.

Bob's suggestion about sexual orientation is an interesting one. That would certainly throw the cat amongst the pidgeons too!

James_M wrote:

tony louis's comments were interesting. i love how vague they were and how gracious he was in giving data that put an approx 7 year window on the use of primary directions bringing together the ascendant and 8th house ruler.. it hinges on one's particular choices for doing primary directions! perhaps because no one is really working with primary directions as they have only been reintroduced recently, or they are unwilling to share there work openly - regardless - it really defeats the concept of making any kind of prediction with a time frame this wide..
here is my thinking on the question tony poses. i note a 7 degree distance between a few planets in the royal babies chart. mars to mercury being the one that instigated this inquiry. ascendant to neptune being another approx 7 degree gap, chiron to the angle of the earth being another one.. jupiter/mars to uranus square is another approx 7 degree gap. that would push out to the year 2020 using the idea of 'a degree per year' which although not the same as solar arc directions, is similar. if one looks at the solar return for the royal baby for 2020 one will note a few important connections from the natal chart to the solar return chart, in particular the placement of saturn conjunct the sun/moon opposition in the babies chart.

Tony gives his focus to Lord 8 (Mercury) directing by primary direction to the ASC ruler Mars. He wrote this piece literally a day after the child?s birth so I don?t think its surprising he hasn?t done either a specific or timed prediction.

You do have a point that Tony listed so many hits it was covering about an 7 year period! That isn't any practical use unless the astrologer plumps for a chosen method of primaries. Moreover, Tony Louis has pointed in a reply he would want to utilise other kinds of predictive tools first rather than simply relying on primary directions. This is the traditional way of using them. They were never meant to be a stand alone technique.

The wide margin of hit dates isn?t really a failing on Tony Louis's part. Its an issue integral to the divergent approaches to working with primary directions.

While primary directions are hailed by many traditionalists as the golden bullet of predictive astrology the variety of different systems of primaries mean the predictive windows can vary by several years. This is well highlighted in Tony Louis?s piece.

I discussed the chart with Tony myself on his blog. A direction he didn?t raise is the Moon to Saturn. Based on a basic look I also think the key period is probably 2020-21. However, I have I have still loads of research to do with other systems such as solar arcs, profections, solar returns, eclipses, and good old transits. Not just in this child?s chart but other key members of the British royal family.

Tony?s piece also didn?t go into what he thought this direction might actually mean. However, we have the basic symbolism of Lord 8 directing to the ASC. Also the Moon directing to Saturn.

So what might this be? Obviously it could symbolise a life threatening illness. With WSH Mars is also Lord 6. The Moon is a natural significator of the body too.

However, one could see this differently as Lord 8 could also symbolise the inheritance through death of a close relative. If the Queen or Prince William died the child would move closer to the succession of the British throne. Logically, it seems more sensible to work on the assumption this may be the Queen. The Moon directing to square Saturn could also fit the symbolism of a female relative dying.

Of course it could also represent his Mother??

We also need to apply some basic common sense to our predictions too though. Who is more likely to die? The Queen and Prince Philip or one/both of a couple in their 30's?

The Queen is already 87. She is is the longest-lived and second-longest-reigning monarch of the United Kingdom and the second-longest-serving current head of state (after King Bhumibol Adulyadej of Thailand). By 2016 she will have overtaken Queen Victoria?s record as the longest serving monarch in British history. Her family certainly are long livers. Her Mother lived to 101!

Her husband Prince Philip (The Duke of Edinburgh) at 92 is already the longest-serving and oldest-ever spouse of a reigning British monarch, and the oldest-ever male member of the British royal family. However, The Duke has suffered from failing health in the last few years. He was recently in Hospital for an operation on his abdomen and has also had heart problems requiring treatment.

http://www.royalcentral.co.uk/blogs/opi ... ilip-13258

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... 6542/Baby-
George-could-wait-months-to-meet-his-great-grandfather-Prince-Philip.html

The British royal family undoubtably has access to the best medical treatment money can buy. However, noone lives foreover.

Without being excessively morbid here I note the solar eclipse visible over the entire United Kingdom in March 2015 might be a precursor to something happening. It falls at 29 Pisces which is the degree of the Moon in the 1066 chart. That chart often has special significance for the British royal family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_ecli ... h_20,_2015

Naturally, this could have other meanings such as the legal separation of Scotland and England following the earlier referendum in Scotland in September 2014. There are other possibilities such as a terrorist attack or a major economic set back such as the Euro crisis reaching a new level of intensity.

However, I tend to think this eclipse may mark a royal death during 2015. Most likely Prince Philip at that point rather than the Queen herself.

Timing the effects of eclipse is always difficult. Charles Carter suggested key triggers might be when the Sun squares the eclipse degree (approximately 3 months later) or when Mars transits the eclipse point.

Actually, Mars transits 29 Pisces before the eclipse in February 2015. However, by transit it opposes the eclipse point in November 2015. November 2015 also coincides with the transiting nodes falling across the eclipse point. In November 2015 the transiting south node arrives at 29 Pisces.

I think this is a different issue detected about 7-8 years from Prince George's birth. Although interestingly, some primaries are activated when he is around 2-3 years old too.

James-M wrote:

one last comment. i think harry is the most likely to take over the throne. his chart is similar to his grandmothers with saturn conjunction midheaven in scorpio while capricorn rises.. 1st house ruler on the midheaven basically sums it up. his is a day chart as well with jupiter rising. all in all i think he takes over the job, but i don't know where he comes in relation to ascending to the mantle of king or queen.. the transit of saturn to williams midheaven which coincides with the birth of his son george is as close as he gets..

Ah the astrological old chestnut of ?Harry for King?! That has been touted by astrologers for literally decades. I remember Noel Tyl arguing this at a talk I attended about 10 years ago.

Dawne Kovan, an astrologer based in Scotland also seems sympathetic to this view. She points out strong connections between Prince Harry chart and that of his Grandmother Queen Elizabeth as well as the chart of Queen Elizabeth I.:

http://dawnekovan.com/astrological-arti ... gin-queen/

Here is an astrologer arguing the same thing from an Indian astrological perspective:

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/vedi ... kings.html

Logically, though that theory has surely taken a significant hit with the birth of Prince George? Harry has now moved down a notch to 4th in line to the Throne after..Prince Charles, Prince William and the new arrival Prince George. If Kate and William have any other children he will move down to 5th in line to the throne.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_of_su ... ish_throne

So how exactly do you see that idea being realised? The only way is surely massive regicide similar to what happened to the Nepalese or Russian royal families!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepalese_royal_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_o ... nov_family

Alternatively, the old British Ealing comedy ?Kind Hearts and Coronets? might point to some more subtle tips for Harry to move up the line of succession!

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/kind_he ... _coronets/

More seriously how could this happen? Firstly, Prince Charles would need to abdicate. This has long been predicted by Noel Tyl:

?Prince Charles will not be King of England --There is an interesting set of astrological measurement variables that emerges from study of the horoscopes of the ten English monarchs from George II born 1683 to Queen Elizabeth II. Charting five key measurements, 60% of all the monarchs had measurement one, 60% measurement two, 70% had the third one, and 40% and 30% had the next two, respectively. The startling observation in this overview is that Prince Charles, heir apparent to the throne, does not have any one of the measurement variables of the monarchs in his horoscope.? Predictions for a New Millennium (Llewellyn, 1996), page 220.

Unfortunately, the strike out rate for Tyl's mundane predictions is quite high. Still this isn't that improbable. Charles is not very popular and he looks unlikely to be eligible to succeed until his 70s.

However, the theory also requires something to happen to William to allow Prince Harry to succeed to the throne.

On top of that we either need Prince George out of the picture altogether or perhaps Harry ruling as a Prince regent until George attains majority.

All in all its looking quite an unlikely scenario to me.

I think the fundamental problem with this whole theory is that it assumes the most capable or suitable will ascend to the throne. Looking at British royal history proves that is simply not the case.

It doesn't matter how good your chart looks if you are ruled out by succession rights. At least in the modern age. Certainly, medieval claimants further down the line of succession could kill off opponents in battle. Nowadays though that is hardly an option!

Many think Princess Anne has more of the 'right stuff' to be a monarch than any of her brothers. However, even if she had been born before her brother Charles she was born at a time when male primogeniture dictated the rules.

Bottom line monarchy isn't a meritocracy. The fact we select through the random factor of birth order has meant that often the most dumb, selfish , incompetent or plain crazy can ascend to the throne.

The royal family has had an outstanding model of a constitutional monarch in Elizabeth II over the last 60+ years. However, they simply dont make people like her anymore. To say she is a 'hard act to follow' for any new monarch is a serious understatement.

Regardless of such considerations the second Elizabethan age is drawing to a close.

Mark

hi mark,

thanks for your comments. tony's not making a prediction as he appears unsure of which primary direction method to use! i know the mantra of one predictive technique must be collaborated with other predictive techniques in order for it to be considered.. it is part of the reason i gave my impression off the 2020 solar return in combo with my emphasis on the 7th year due the 7 degree gap between so many planets in georges chart.. one i neglected to mention but also considered (and part basis for my previous comments) was the 7 degree gap between moon and saturn too which you have mentioned here now! thanks for articulating that.. when you combine that with saturn conjunction the moon in the solar return for george 2020 it does put greater emphasis on what the moon represents in his chart.. it could be connected to his great-grandmother as you mentioned. i did look at her 21 capricorn rising which will have saturn transit over ascendant earlier in the year - jan 1st 2020 to be exact! i would interpret saturn transit to her ascendant as having direct bearing on her health and implying greater weakness/fragility..

on another related topic i had also considered queen elizabeths chart from a derivative house point of view.. if one thinks of her family being represented by the solar 4th(moon in leo placement) then the 4th from the 4th represents her grandchildren(where her natal saturn is) while the 4th from the 7th represents her great grandchildren which is where the mars/jupiter conjunction is. this is the same conjunction that shows up in georges chart although by a different sign.. i thought that was mildly interesting / coincidental.. not sure if i have that right, but i think that is how that can be seen.. george represents the mars/jupiter in his great-grandmothers chart..

as for my ending comments on harry's chart - i agree with you.. i just felt like saying what i did and i thought it was interesting astrologically.. you are correct though - it matters diddly squat.

i took this issue (articulated at the top) up with tony on his site as well a few days before you, and i am glad that he felt comfortable giving you a response to a post that captured my own sentiments. glad you directed him over here to see the post you started...

Mark wrote: You do have a point that Tony listed so many hits it was covering about an 7 year period! That isn't any practical use unless the astrologer plumps for a chosen method of primaries. Moreover, Tony Louis has pointed in a reply he would want to utilise other kinds of predictive tools first rather than simply relying on primary directions. This is the traditional way of using them. They were never meant to be a stand alone technique.

The wide margin of hit dates isn?t really a failing on Tony Louis's part. Its an issue integral to the divergent approaches to working with primary directions.

While primary directions are hailed by many traditionalists as the golden bullet of predictive astrology the variety of different systems of primaries mean the predictive windows can vary by several years. This is well highlighted in Tony Louis?s piece.

Mark wrote:I discussed the chart with Tony myself on his blog. A direction he didn?t raise is the Moon to Saturn. Based on a basic look I also think the key period is probably 2020-21. However, I have I have still loads of research to do with other systems such as solar arcs, profections, solar returns, eclipses, and good old transits. Not just in this child?s chart but other key members of the British royal family.

Tony?s piece also didn?t go into what he thought this direction might actually mean. However, we have the basic symbolism of Lord 8 directing to the ASC. Also the Moon directing to Saturn.

So what might this be? Obviously it could symbolise a life threatening illness. With WSH Mars is also Lord 6. The Moon is a natural significator of the body too.

However, one could see this differently as Lord 8 could also symbolise the inheritance through death of a close relative. If the Queen or Prince William died the child would move closer to the succession of the British throne. Logically, it seems more sensible to work on the assumption this may be the Queen. The Moon directing to square Saturn could also fit the symbolism of a female relative dying.

Of course it could also represent his Mother??

Mark wrote: It doesn't matter how good your chart looks if you are ruled out by succession rights. At least in the modern age. Certainly, medieval claimants further down the line of succession could kill off opponents in battle. Nowadays though that is hardly an option!


Bottom line monarchy isn't a meritocracy. The fact we select through the random factor of birth order has meant that often the the most dumb, selfish , incompetent or plain crazy can ascend to the throne.

The royal family has had an outstanding model of a constitutional monarch in Elizabeth II over the last 60+ years. However, they simply dont make people like her anymore. To say she is a 'hard act to follow' for any new monarch is a serious understatement.

Regardless of such considerations the second Elizabethan age is drawing to a close.

Mark