obama looks challenged astrologically.

solar return chart puts a strong emphasis on mars in virgo which is in the 8th house/sign from the ascendant. this is right where the solar arc ascendant is 2 degree orb. sr midheaven squares onto it as well.

profection lord for this year is mercury. the 2013 solar return chart gives us a saturn squared onto mercury, while mercury is in opposition to saturn back in the natal.. the basic back and forth suggests mercury is not at it's happiest place in all this..at the same time mercury/saturn hard aspects can be good for analysis and sticking to the 'facts'. i suppose the choice between humour and depression is more present in them too.. given that the solar return angles are virgo ascendant with gemini midheaven, mercury as ruler of both is generally more pronounced in the 2 charts - 2013 solar return and profection..

in the mundane primary directions using the naibod key i see converse saturn opposite mars june 4 2013. in the zodiac primary directions using the true solar equatorial arc key and placidus under the pole there is 45 moon to ascendant 13/05/15, square of saturn to uranus 13/05/18, mercury to 45 mercury 14/01/07 in the direct pds, while converse pds in same format gives me 135 saturn to neptune 13/02/19, ascendant to 45 moon 13/03/18, moon to 45 pluto 13/07/17, square of sun to venus 14/03/19...

once again the primary directions are a bit of a muddle for me as i am leaving all options open when considering them. perhaps the most obvious one that would be considered challenging is the first one i listed - saturn opp mars.. this showed up a few years ago in the zodiac pds, so depending on whether you think mundane directions are more relevant then zodiac primary directions or not, you have that to choose from.. one point i would like to make is something i picked up a long time ago from lloyd cope. i thought he was a pretty insightful astrologer.. he suggested that the position of the 2 planets in the natal ( one could say this about any foundation chart too) is the key to understanding how the planets will interact when they meet in any of the predictive charts you want to consider. so in this example, mars to saturn are in a 120 aspect which is generally considered favourable.. using sect - saturn is the planet out of sect in obamas chart, in the 12th and in the sign capricorn. it rules obamas 12th and 1st house.. perhaps obama is under pressure to come up with a plan of action that he doesn't completely sit comfortably with.. speculation on this topic is fertile ground of course!!! overall, aside from 2 malefics connecting which is generally not considered a positive, i don't see this one particular pd as making that much of a difference in all this.. others better versed in primary directions - please chime in!

going back to obama's 2013 solar return chart, saturn is close to natal neptune, while also squaring his mercury.. in fact sr saturn is at 5 fixed, while natal mercury is at 2 and neptune at 8, bringing mercury/neptune together using a technique i like from midpoint theory.. the idea that the information obama is being given is somehow suspect, or that the info that the admin is giving the media could also be suspect is always a possibility, especially given the usa's track record in this dept. over the past 10 or more years.. overall it seems obama is in a challenging situation, but maybe i read all of this wrong! here is his 2013 solar return chart shown below.


image search

just reading this article now which gives an overview up to today on obama and the complex situation involving the usa and syria, along with other players on the world stage. i liked this article, but don't want to get into a political conversation about it.
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2013/09/a- ... .html#more

Hi James

Fun to have a look at Obama's solar return. I feel that the fact that two planets are in the "Degree of the Node" is interesting. Especially in context of the events occured since his solar return kicked in. According to many astrologers this is kind of a bad omen. Planets in this degree have a tendency to run amok a bit and Ivy Jacobsen even make statements as fatality et.c.

Uranus in 7th House and Sun in 11th house is in the nodal degree (12').
Can this have an influence in the increased tensions and challenges in Obamas leadership when it comes to foreign affairs and enemies.(7th)
Sudden (UR) events in these affairs which also involves his allies and friends ?(SU 11th) ? Or is this sun in 11th in nodal degree symbolising the issues with congress involved in the matter ?

hi stefan,

nice to see you here posting! thanks for the comments. i believe the indian astrologers have more of a view that the nodal axis and connections to it are mostly negative. i don't know that everyone shares that view. i read judith hills book on the nodes about a year ago and i thought it was well written and insightful. she makes a distinction between the north and south node and she makes a distinction between hard aspects verses soft aspects too. in the obama example, while his natal sun squares onto the nodal axis directly, or is 'in the turns' as some refer to this, the position of uranus in the sr chart is 150/30 the nodal axis.

the sun ruling and in his 7th house/sign probably makes for challenges in this dept. of his life mostly. perhaps the square to neptune is engaged as well and he is forced to take positions politically that don't sit well with him or create some ambiguity he isn't comfortable with either. it is hard to know what obama stands for, but i have always seen him as an excellent talker, perfect for politics where image is everything and substance is much harder to detect.

ivy goldstein-jacobsen was mostly focused on horary astrology as i understand it.. her ideas might have been more applicable in horary then in natal or mundane.

take a look at the israel chart with solar return to 2013 in the israel thread i started and tell me what you think! using a mundane chart example, it looks challenging overlapping the data with where the nodal axis happens to be..

RE: ivy goldstein-jacobsen was mostly focused on horary astrology as i understand it.. her ideas might have been more applicable in horary then in natal or mundane.



Yes maybe so. It's a technique I am watching for when I am seeing it in charts to see if there is something to it. First time I saw it used in practice was in a book by Bernadette Brady where she use it in solar return charts. Also Celeste Teal use it and refer to it, mostly in mundane astrology.
Celest Teal:
"Similarly, the eclipse charts of late 2002 featured Neptune in the degree of the True Node prior to such major events as the beginning of the war in Iraq and the Shuttle Columbia tragedy. The Solar Eclipse prior to the historical blackouts in the eastern US of 2003, featured Saturn in the degree of the True Nodes.

On the other hand, for event charts, it is the Mean Node that should be used, the same as for nativities and horary charts. For example, in his book, Anthony Louis illustrates the event chart for the San Francisco earthquake of ?89 in which the Ascendant fell in the degree of the Mean Nodes. Similarly, the event chart for the earthquake and tsunami in late 2004 showed the Moon to be in the degree of the Moon?s Mean Nodes.

Examples of just a few nativities with planets or significant points in the degree of the Mean Nodes includes Martha Stewart (Part of Fortune), George W. Bush (Uranus), Bonny Lee Bakely (Venus), Jackie Bouvier (Ascendant/Descendant).

There are always numerous indicators for any one event and this rule of the degree of the nodes should be judged alongside the rest of the factors in any kind of chart. I will continue my research and please feel free to email me of your experience with this interpretation tool using the nodes. Link to The Moon's Nodes for more. Best, Celeste Teal

But there seems to be conflicting wiews as to true or mean node.




RE:"one point i would like to make is something i picked up a long time ago from lloyd cope. i thought he was a pretty insightful astrologer.. he suggested that the position of the 2 planets in the natal ( one could say this about any foundation chart too) is the key to understanding how the planets will interact when they meet in any of the predictive charts you want to consider"


Yes I think that principle is important indeed. Funny you mentioning Loyd Cope.
I was just reading a book of his. Seldom hears his name. Synchronicity.



RE:take a look at the israel chart with solar return to 2013 in the israel thread i started and tell me what you think! using a mundane chart example, it looks challenging overlapping the data with where the nodal axis happens to be..



Yes I will look into it. Interesting...and will cast an eye on Obama's too and see if there is something for me to add here as well. Although you covered it well. Primary directions is not a strength of mine however.

hi stefan,

i think the key comment to take away from celest teal is 'i will continue my research'. that is all it is and when reading her comments closely i can't help but be inclined to shoot most of it down.. a lot of events happened in 2002 or 2003.. to put only 2 of the events down to a connection in the eclipse charts seems to be selectively choosing data that conforms to your per-arranged idea after the fact. sorry, but i don't really buy any of it!

let me give you an immediate example based on a few events that have popped up in the last month.. 2 different people i know directly have had heart attacks - both virgos - one born in 1935 and the other in 1951. this has happened in the last 1-2 weeks while the sun is transiting virgo.. now we know there is a connection with the heart and the sun in astro symbolism and i remember being told of a connection like this to higher possibly of health issues around the return of the sun to its natal place, but as i mentioned to my sister who also knows both individuals, they have had birthdays countless times and never had a heart attack in all of those other years, so why this year? is there a connection between the heart and the sun and a more sensitive time for health issues relating to the sun at it's return to the sign it was in when one was born? maybe, maybe not! until more research is done on all of these topics, astrologers will be shooting in the dark more often then not!

that is an interesting coincidence that you are reading a lloyd cope book!

as for true or mean nodes, i settled on mean nodes and i can't remember the rationale, but this is a critical distinction if one wants to work with any planets in the same degree as the node!!!! that is another reason i am not all that convinced of it's merits.. partile aspects - are aspects where planets were in the exact same degree as another planet i do consider relevant mostly due the fact i think a very tight orb is more significant then a wider one, but with nodes it is complicated by the true verses mean option..

another personal story - about 7 years ago i had a station of jupiter exact conjunct my north node which i would translate as very favourable.. it is hard for me to get behind the idea that the nodes are generally always negative in what they might bring, but maybe my example is a poor one as it involves the benefic planet jupiter! my sun is also in the same degree as the nodal axis using mean position for the node.. it is hard for me to tell whether this has been good or bad as i am too close to the situation!!

as a result or partial consequence of all this i am inclined to not put that much emphasis on the moons nodes..another question i always ask when folks are putting more emphasis on the moons node is ''what about the nodal axis of the other planets, or sun for that matter( represented by the 0 aries degree in relation to earth)? i know the moon is important but are the nodes to the moon equally important, and if so how? a lot of this i see coming out of an exposure to indian astrology.. on the other hand if someone can do some research that goes beyond cherry picking examples that help support a general idea, that would be great. i don't have the ''heart'' for it myself and will continue to do the little things i do in astrologyland that reflect my ongoing passion for astrology..
cheers james

Stefan wrote: Celest Teal:
"Similarly, the eclipse charts of late 2002 featured Neptune in the degree of the True Node prior to such major events as the beginning of the war in Iraq and the Shuttle Columbia tragedy. The Solar Eclipse prior to the historical blackouts in the eastern US of 2003, featured Saturn in the degree of the True Nodes.

On the other hand, for event charts, it is the Mean Node that should be used, the same as for nativities and horary charts. For example, in his book, Anthony Louis illustrates the event chart for the San Francisco earthquake of ?89 in which the Ascendant fell in the degree of the Mean Nodes. Similarly, the event chart for the earthquake and tsunami in late 2004 showed the Moon to be in the degree of the Moon?s Mean Nodes.


There are always numerous indicators for any one event and this rule of the degree of the nodes should be judged alongside the rest of the factors in any kind of chart. I will continue my research and please feel free to email me of your experience with this interpretation tool using the nodes. Link to The Moon's Nodes for more. Best, Celeste Teal

But there seems to be conflicting views as to true or mean node.


Funny you mentioning Loyd Cope.
I was just reading a book of his. Seldom hears his name. Synchronicity.

Yes each astrologer chooses which weight given to various techniques.
For example the mentioned astrologer Loyd Cope have omitted the nodes
COMPLETELY in his forecasting work. Another side of the spectrum. Other astrologer uses the nodes extensively. And in astrology it seems that a great
many levels of techniques DO work. The task is to choose which fits your own particular mindset. As for the "degree of the node" technique while I don't know the actual origin of it, it is clearly not Indian. Fine western astrologers uses it, like Ivy Goldstein-Jacobssen, Bernadette Brady, Celeste Teal and Anthony Louis et.c.

Being open for investigation one may notice that in the event chart of Titanic hitting the iceberg. The MC and Neptune is in the nodal degree.
Neptune in cancer in WSH 8th house with Node on IC might be for an astrologer who is open for this technique a good symbolic fit for troubles
at sea going to the depths (IC) or end of matter.
http://www.neptunecafe.com/nsc042312.html

The Capricorn ingress before the Tsunami had Sun (vital planet in an ingress chart one might think) in the nodal mean node.
http://www.bendykes.com/articles/tsunami.php


I agree with you that the question of mean or true node used is a vital one.

For example in the event chart for the recent naval shooting, both
Saturn and pluto in nodal degree (but true node). Chart ruler venus in scorpio in close applying aspect to node and Saturn.

More interesting examples found, but no time for writing more at the moment.
And don't want to digress from topic more now.

hi stefan,

i do want to take up this issue a bit more and i will use a few of obama's return charts to further the discussion. i didn't recall lloyd cope not using the nodes, but i think this was/is common in western modern astrology.. when i first learned about astrology in the 70's the nodal axis was never emphasized in the way that i understood indian, or eastern astrology to emphasize it. as for planets on the same degree of the nodal axis - partile - i don't know the origin of this technique but off the top it strikes me like a horary technique which would fit with your source for it - ivy goldstein-jacobsen. at any rate, here are a few other examples of this pattern showing up in some of obama's solar returns for the past few years. i am singling out 2008, 2009 and 2012.. 2008 and 2012 were the years obama was elected and re-elected as president of the usa, while 2009 is the year that he won the nobel peace prize.

2008 natal solar return finds the mean nodal axis in the same degree as the mercury/chiron opposition and part of the opposition at 18aquarius/leo which happens to be the degree of his natal ascendant/descendant.. in itself, would this be the basis for a positive or negative prediction for obama in the year he first became president? i predicted him winning based on other astro data which might have been subjectively marred by liking the guy at the time..

2009 natal solar return has the mean north node at 29 cap, which is the same degree of the sr moon - 29 cap. sr midheaven is at 29 gemini.. he won the nobel prize in the later part of 2009..a

2012 natal solar return using the true north axis, the connections are as follows. sr north node at 2 sag, square neptune at 2 pisces and trine mercury at 2 leo...

if i trigger back and forth between mean and true nodal axis i can find a connection in the degree of the nodal axis for all 3 years.. isn't this supposed to be seen as a negative according to the theory, or do i have that wrong?

frankly i just don't see it myself. perhaps it is yet another example of the need to consider the myriad elements of the chart and without that, the context is lost. i just don't think the technique merits much value in natal astrology, but if someone does some exhaustive study and proves me wrong, i will be fine with that too! the fact that the solar return chart for 2013 using the mean nodal axis is exact degree square sun, trine chiron and 150 uranus is almost a mute point for me. i would emphasize the first connection with the sun as i see it as net negative and more of a challenge for the expression of his sun in leo ability to connect to the public in a positive way. i don't know that this is happening so much at present which might be pushed further given the wide square to neptune in his chart which catches the transit of the nodal axis in these same fixed signs where his sun and neptune are located.. of course the transit of saturn approaching the square to his natal sun is more indicative of this as well, and i would consider this much more important, as ruler of his 12th and 1st house - all as i see it of course!

I don't know exactly what happened in Obama's life during these years.
But no, it seems to make absolutely no sense at all in these solar returns mentioned here.

Maybe the the discussion so far have been carried away a bit in the black and white fatalistic mode of thinking regarding these matters. I felt the need to going back and having a look into Bernadette Brady's "Predictive astrology" where I read about this a long time ago, she lists guidelines for interpretation of Return charts. After being immersed in the Vedic methods for quite a long time I am being a bit rusty regarding solar returns.


Brady says:
About a planet being in the "degree of the node" she says:
"3. Use the mean node, the one that the ancients used. If any planet being in the degree of the node, this planet will be acutely emphasized throughout the period of the return"

Not bad or good. Emphasised.


In Obama's 2008 return chart for year of his presidency as the first black president, Mercury is in the degree of the node. Mercury is in that chart the ruler ofboth the Virgo ascendant and the Gemini MC, thus a key player of the chart for presidency and "emphasisied".
(Obama was in Lansing at the time of the return giving Virgo Gemini angles.
Relocated to Washington DC also same angles.)


In that book Brady also give an example of a similar placement in Marie Curie's lunar return where ALSO virgo rising, Gemini MC, mercury in degree of the node. She said that mercury in degree of the node was instrumental in marie curie's promotion that month to professor in Sorbonne.


So it makes sense I think. And the sensitivisation of the Sun 11th and Uranus in the 7th house of Obama's current return may have interpretational value as I mentioned in first reply. But not as necessarily a negative thing.

Btw Michelle Adler have the same wiew about the nodal degree in her book Predictive astrology.

thanks for that overview stefan. i would agree with the authors you've quoted and to how it relates back to obamas return chart for 2008. last night i finally finished reading ben dykes persian nativities 111 - the one on solar returns and profection data. there are some comments on the nodes and there is a definite distinction made positive/negative between north/south node. i am not sure the history between arab and indian cross pollination of many of these ideas, but it would be interesting to know. i feel judith hills book on the lunar nodes is a good one for anyone interested in considering them in a chart.

Stefan wrote:Bernadette Brady's "Predictive astrology"

is that the eagle and lark book, or is it another one? i read the eagle and lark book quite a while ago.. i would give it a 75% rating, lol..

Yes it is the "Eagle and the Lark" book which was later renamed to "predictive astrology". I think the book is a very good read, even though I was not perfectly comfortable with some of it. She now that she have revised some of her methods since than and incorporated some more traditional techniques. She also uses the tradional rulerships more I think, while in the book she used modern rulers. This is from an interwiew I readsome time ago.

thanks stefan,
i did enjoy reading the book, but i found in some of the examples, she rationalized why some of the events had happened a certain way, that i found myself looking at differently.. at the time she wrote the book, the neo-traditional astrology movement hadn't really gotten going, and neither i or her by the sound of it were aware of the approach.. i am coming out of the ebertin/hamburg school of astrology with a focus on midpoints and the use of the 45 and 135 aspects.. i know that was not a part of her background from reading her book, and probably still isn't! some of the examples were perfected represented with the use of these tools, but weren't made use of as they weren't a part of her vocabulary.. cheers james