Paul wrote:In fact we often see traditional authors suggest that a malefic strong in essential dignity can act like a benefic, whilst a benefic corrupted by being in fall or detriment can act like a malefic. This idea stretches back at least to the arabic astrologers.

Yes, and already the Hellenistic author Vettius Valens had stressed this principle expressedly and repeatedly.

johannes susato wrote:

Paul wrote:In fact we often see traditional authors suggest that a malefic strong in essential dignity can act like a benefic, whilst a benefic corrupted by being in fall or detriment can act like a malefic. This idea stretches back at least to the arabic astrologers.

Yes, and already the Hellenistic author Vettius Valens had stressed this principle expressedly and repeatedly.

Thanks Johannes, I know he says of sect quite a lot, but couldn't remember if in dignity as well.

I apologize if I was not clear in what I said.

In fact we often see traditional authors suggest that a malefic strong in essential dignity can act like a benefic, whilst a benefic corrupted by being in fall or detriment can act like a malefic. This idea stretches back at least to the arabic astrologers.

I do not dispute that, and in fact, that was in part what I was trying to say, and explain why that is so. I believe that you omitted the parts of my post that said that.

My reference to Mars in Libra being unable to act is because he is peregrine in that sign (unless in a degree dignified by term or face), not because he is in detriment. This is why I distinguished Mars in Libra from Mars in Taurus and Mars in fall in Cancer.

I agree that a malefic strong in essential dignity can act as a benefic, particularly when the dignity is pure. As I said, for most purposes, I do treat Mars in Aries, Scorpio, or Capricorn as a benefic. I also explained the difference between Mars in Scorpio and in Aries. Mars is stronger in Scorpio than Aries, because he also has dignity in Scorpio by triplicity.

In my experience, the analysis is a little different when the dignity is corrupted, the example of Mars in Cancer. (I am using Mars in Cancer, because Mars is dignified in water in all systems. I do use Dorothean triplicities, so I consider Mars dignified in Taurus as well.)

I agree with the energy of detriment and fall being a corruption, rather than a weakening. I suppose it is a matter of interpretation. If I am going to have a malefic corrupted, I would rather have him weak as well, rather than strong and corrupted. I do think that Mars in Cancer can do a lot more damage than Mars in Libra. While I might treat Mars in Scorpio as a benefic, I tend to see Mars in Cancer as VERY malefic. Mars in Libra is likely to annoy others; whereas, Mars in Cancer is far likelier to exact revenge!

Yes, I understand that dignity does moderate the malefics, but I think that they need to be moderated to be effective to anything at all, at least on any positive level. Yes, of course, the malefics can destroy without dignity, but that is all that they can do. This may make them more malefic in the short term; however, eventually destructive power will just destroy itself. Here is an example, Mars in Leo will tend to make one throw big, dramatic, pompous temper tantrums, but these will generally not get Mars in Leo his way. A perceptive person will realize this by the time she has grown up, hopefully (depending on Sun sign..Sun ruling Leo), and will give up on the temper tantrums, finding another way to get what she wants. Mars in Cancer WILL get his way much of the time, so will persist in the negative behavior.

Of course, all of this is taking these things out of the context of a chart and a reason for looking at the chart. This analysis is in the context of a Nativity, of course. In an horary or an electional, this analysis applies, but in a different way, because we are looking at the chart for a much more limited purpose.

I hope that this clarifies my previous post somewhat.[/quote]

Myriam Hildotter wrote: My reference to Mars in Libra being unable to act is because he is peregrine in that sign (unless in a degree dignified by term or face), not because he is in detriment. This is why I distinguished Mars in Libra from Mars in Taurus and Mars in fall in Cancer.

I agree that a malefic strong in essential dignity can act as a benefic, particularly when the dignity is pure. As I said, for most purposes, I do treat Mars in Aries, Scorpio, or Capricorn as a benefic. I also explained the difference between Mars in Scorpio and in Aries. Mars is stronger in Scorpio than Aries, because he also has dignity in Scorpio by triplicity.

Thanks for the clarification