zoidsoft wrote:Sometimes fame has to do with the sequence of time lord activation. But if you look at the lots, the lot of exaltation hands over to fortune and lords of spirit and basis in the 7th from fortune and the lord of fortune is co-present. I'm not sure when he became "famous", but there are many instances when a releasing from spirit comes to the 10th from fortune that one becomes more visible and noticed (This could be Virgo or Leo in Bruce Lee's chart depending on whether you follow Valens advice about lots falling amiss).

I noticed that Mandela reached his 10th from fortune just as he was released from prison in early 1990 (Capricorn). That was a defining moment for him, but in general Mandela had a hard life and the chart shows this.

thats true, I was suspecting that there could be some "hidden fame" via his various lots.

by the way, when you refer to reaching a 10th from fortune period, what exactly do you mean? On aphesis when I look at the time periods for releasing from fortune the time spans are so massive, I don't think anybody could live long enough to experience a releasing from 10th house of POF. Are you referring to the subperiods? Or have I misunderstood the concept completely?

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Mandela,_Nelson

Frances McEvoy reported that her son and daughter-in-law spent a summer in South Africa with the Kennedy Foundation as lawyers. During an afternoon in the entourage of Mandela, they asked his birth time and were told "afternoon." Noel Tyl wrote in May/1994 that he rectified the afternoon time with extremely taxing detail to 2:54 PM, then shared his documentation with Rod Suskin, a well-known South African astrologer who responded with "a veritable catalogue of reinforcement for the time."

South African astrologer Anita Noyes-Smith has a friend in Mandela's office who checked for a time and found that there is no known time of birth. Umtata is a rural area and blacks had no birth certificates. Often, they did not even know the date as it was not valued as important. Himself said 2:45 (Cedra database).

(Formerly, Noel Tyl had speculated 8:45 AM, given in AFANews 1/1994. Daniela Schmuckli had a spec time of 12:45 PM in Astrolog 6/1996. Anita Noyes-Smith speculated 2:12 AM.)

Starkman rectified it to 14.51.32 EET

I'm inclined to think Mandela's chart might be right. It fits what Valens says about the emancipation of slaves (not only that it is the encounter of the domicile lord Sag -> Jupiter in Cancer). The 27 years of prison lines up fairly well with the 12th Scorpio (15 years) and Sag period (12 years) = 27. Valens says that when the times prepare to become malefic, they do so shortly before the actual onset.

But if the time is off, it could be one of the other 27 "lock tumblers" that got tripped: http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-file ... yof27.html

james_m wrote:http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Mandela,_Nelson

Frances McEvoy reported that her son and daughter-in-law spent a summer in South Africa with the Kennedy Foundation as lawyers. During an afternoon in the entourage of Mandela, they asked his birth time and were told "afternoon." Noel Tyl wrote in May/1994 that he rectified the afternoon time with extremely taxing detail to 2:54 PM, then shared his documentation with Rod Suskin, a well-known South African astrologer who responded with "a veritable catalogue of reinforcement for the time."

South African astrologer Anita Noyes-Smith has a friend in Mandela's office who checked for a time and found that there is no known time of birth. Umtata is a rural area and blacks had no birth certificates. Often, they did not even know the date as it was not valued as important. Himself said 2:45 (Cedra database).

(Formerly, Noel Tyl had speculated 8:45 AM, given in AFANews 1/1994. Daniela Schmuckli had a spec time of 12:45 PM in Astrolog 6/1996. Anita Noyes-Smith speculated 2:12 AM.)

Starkman rectified it to 14.51.32 EET

Yes. Even a dead clock is right twice per day, maybe just lucky.

BTW, using ZR for rectification which I often do, usually only results in confirming whether you have the right 2 hour block of the day. This is because the same timing goes whether the lot of spirit or fortune is a zero degrees of the sign or 30. If one does both fortune and spirit releasing, sometimes one can narrow that interval down to within a few minutes.

AstroNovice wrote:by the way, when you refer to reaching a 10th from fortune period, what exactly do you mean? On aphesis when I look at the time periods for releasing from fortune the time spans are so massive, I don't think anybody could live long enough to experience a releasing from 10th house of POF. Are you referring to the subperiods? Or have I misunderstood the concept completely?

It's true that often one does not reach the 10th from fortune major period in their lifetime (this is part of the sequencing issue I spoke of earlier) but this can happen in sub periods as well and particularly if in the nativity the ruler of spirit or the lot of exaltation should happen to be in the 10th from fortune, then when that sub period is reached then it is a peak and is made more brilliant when benefics happen to be present or testifying or the ruler happens to be in its own places. I explained this more completely in the commentary on Obama's chart:

http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-file ... n2012.html

ok great, thanks for clearing that up for me

BTW, Bruce Lee's chart should be considered diurnal even though the Sun falls slightly below the ascendant. This is because atmospheric refraction can deflect the rays of the Sun around the horizon by up to a degree and 1/2. When considering eminence then, looking at the trigon lords we see that Sun, Jupiter are the primary lords with Saturn assisting both. The ascension for Sagittarius at that latitude is about 35 years.

Lee was in a peak period (10th from fortune in spirit releasing) when he died, but spirit was going to fully loose the bond to darkness in Aquarius 5 days later (Cancer had already done so to Capricorn as shown below).

Looking at fortune releasing we see an almugea (medieval form of "proper face") where the planets share the same relationship as they have to their domiciles. The Sun is in an 8th house relationship to Saturn and Saturn had the general times for fortune (physical body and health). Since Mars was in aversion, the Sun has primary authority over the Aries period according to Antiochus's doctrine of participation (although Mars is like engirding and also in an 8th relationship to the time of death):

Striking that his ascent began as Saturn began to risefrom the IC in pisces out of the obscure zone(1,2,3 houses),close to the Nonagesimal to be more precise( 2? Pisces)as Grant Lewi taught on his phases of Saturn. This method never seems to fail me.
Spock told me the Ng gives him better results than the MC

msg deleted

He was a philosopher first, martial artist second.

Objectively he was a movie star first. Lee was not a professional fighter. He was an actor that used his martial arts ability to great effect in motion pictures, made in Hong Kong and mostly shown in Hong Kong Theaters. He was far more famous there at the time of his death than he was in the USA. I was in my mid 20s when he died, and I had never heard of him. When his death made the news I thought they were referring to David Carradine who was popular for his then contemporary TV show Kung Fu, an idea dreamed up by Lee. It could be argued that Lee was on the cusp of great fame when he died, and I think that would be accurate.

Given his skill level, had he wanted to be a professional fighter there is no doubt he could have been a good one - maybe the best. I've never seen an athlete of any kind with faster hands, and I don't know how to defend against blinding speed. But he was primarily a movie star whose fame in the US came mostly after his death. Mercury fits him to a "T."

Hello Tom,

Re: "...was primarily a movie star..."

In terms of renown, yes...but in larger terms I think not so much. Yes, he made "Kung Fu" movies (breaking all box-office records for such movies in the countries in which they aired), but he spent nearly ALL of his time training! It was so much so that when he was sitting, he would do arm exercises while sitting (not wanting to waste potential training time). I think on some level, he wanted to be the most powerful/explosive man on Earth. His early demonstrations are legendary, including especially his two-inch punch, which would send even very large men reeling.

It's too bad that Bruce Lee got passed over for the Kung Fu role. He was ideally better suited for it... ie. a real martial artist, who really knew Kung Fu and was actually Chinese. Instead of "the real deal", we get basically a dancer.

Of course, Bruce Lee is known as a movie star, but also one of the very greatest martial artists of all time. David Carradine is known as the guy who strangled himself with a cord around his private parts in a city that couldn't have been more comically named, relative to his demise.

James