james_m wrote:do you see the system you have outlined as competing with other systems or concepts of time lords that some in the astrological community are trying to re-introduce based on hellenistic literature that has been made available more recently? i am mostly thinking of curtis manwarrings software and the time lords that he has mentioned in passing here a few times.

As a matter of fact, Delphic Oracle now includes a very useful primary directions module (I use it myself). But yes, I do think one has to choose one method, or one set of hierarchically interlinked methods. If you try to use three or four different methods side by side, then all planets will be perceived as active simultaneously, making every event justifiable in retrospect but impossible to predict in advance.

it seems to me the planetary ages of man or whatever one calls those time frames given in the link deb shared from wikipedia would have been a general system of time lords that are not as specific as the ones either you or curtis have talked about.

Yes, I agree.

thanks for elaborating anymore if you feel you have personal views on any of this that you'd like to share and thanks for what you have shared!

My pleasure, and I second Konrad's recommendation of that Bezza article, though it's hard going at times. (The English translation mirrors the high style of the Italian original.)

My personal experience supports the method I've outlined (with the addition of annual revolutions), but in a sidereal zodiac. The choice of zodiac affects the terms, though not the directions to promissors. And I hope it's all right to mention here that all aspects of primary directions, including the ones we have discussed briefly in this thread, are treated in some detail in my online course.

thanks konrad and martin,

i am going to start a new thread up as i have too many questions and comments to make and i think it might be better to start a new thread on the concept of time lords.

i had read margherita's translation of the bezza article before, but at the time i hadn't read as much as i have to date which means that the article raised some questions for me this time that i didn't have previously. perhaps the most pressing one i will mention now is how solar returns play into the hierarchy of important considerations and the role of 'time lords'. after reading benjamin dykes persian nativities book 3 'on the solar revolutions' i had a conversation here on skyscript.. astrojin was kind enough to comment on some of questions i had around the use of profection and solar return charts. perhaps konrad and martin remember this thread as they were both involved in it at the time. the thread can be found here -http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7696

astrojin wrote: james_m:

one other comment you've made seems to suggest the solar return chart is the main filter when applying the different methods you've listed below. this would appear to place the solar return at the top of the chain of considerations with all other predictive techniques of lesser importance. i am curious to know your thoughts on this. i wonder if this is a development of arab astrologers that didn't exist previously. i don't know the starting point for the use of solar return charts but i believe it is an arabic invention if i am not mistaken.

From Valens? Anthology Book IV, Chapter 11 (PP29 ? 30, Schmidt?s translation):
Though the divisions are diverse, if one pays attention he will not go wrong. For when the same handings over are signified in a twelve year period, they will not [always] possess the same operation of the effects, but different. Whenever we will find a handing over after one or more [years] in a certain cycle, we will examined the renewed nativity for that year?

Equivalent translation from Riley (/168P/ Book IV Chapter 11, Pg 79):
The same transmissions are indicated every 12 years. They will, however, not have the same causative influence, but different. Wherever we find a transmission in one cycle, (whether from one or from many), we examine the horoscope recast for that year, ?

This is the reference where Valens instructs the astrologer to marry the profection system with the renewed nativity (which is the solar return).

We could say that the solar return is the door by which the indications promised in the natal chart are to be manifested.

i don't know how well these comments or the idea of the use of solar return charts dovetails with the system outlined in the bezza article, but it appears their is no room for solar return charts having some say over the 'lord of the year' whether one would like to call that a 'time lord' or not..

martin - i have the latest version of delphi oracle but i have yet to learn how to use it. that requires some devotion of time on my part which i haven't been able to give to it yet. more comments later, perhaps tomorrow in a new thread. thanks..

Deb wrote:Link to a good explanation of Ptolemy's use of 'Seven ages of man':
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrabiblo ... dentals.29
(Begins 4th para down from top of this link)

Well, it overlapping with Firdaria's ages ruling planets somewhere, like with diurnal chart 50s ruled by Jupiter (roughly), but totally different with Saturn's ages. In Ptolemy's "Seven ages" its after 69, in Firdaria's diurnal its 40s, in nocturnal is teenager's age.
If adding general aging from AC sign triplicity (Like Saturn-Mercury-Jupiter for Air signs for 3 periods of life) and main Luminary's sign triplicity
it comes already to TOTAL MESS.
Moreover in regard to all described above techniques, with directions, perfections and solar returns.

I think that's a fair assessment, and very graphically illustrated!

LOL yuriy! that could characterize the different astrologers competing for the supremacy of there unique approach too!

james_m wrote: i don't know how well these comments or the idea of the use of solar return charts dovetails with the system outlined in the bezza article, but it appears their is no room for solar return charts having some say over the 'lord of the year' whether one would like to call that a 'time lord' or not..

I believe Bezza's students use to compare profections with nativity, solar return and directions.
This is a screenshot from the software produced by his collaborator, Marco Fumagalli. There is the natal chart inside and solar return in the outside wheel- profections of hylegiacal places are the coloured area. It is possible to add directions too (but are not showed in this picture)

Yuriy wrote:

Deb wrote:Link to a good explanation of Ptolemy's use of 'Seven ages of man':
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrabiblo ... dentals.29
(Begins 4th para down from top of this link)

Well, it overlapping with Firdaria's ages ruling planets somewhere, like with diurnal chart 50s ruled by Jupiter (roughly), but totally different with Saturn's ages. In Ptolemy's "Seven ages" its after 69, in Firdaria's diurnal its 40s, in nocturnal is teenager's age.
If adding general aging from AC sign triplicity (Like Saturn-Mercury-Jupiter for Air signs for 3 periods of life) and main Luminary's sign triplicity
it comes already to TOTAL MESS.
Moreover in regard to all described above techniques, with directions, perfections and solar returns.

Yes, very nice picture, but if you use only the time lords that you can conceptually understand, then there will be no traffic jam. Life becomes easy!