Jo?o Ventura wrote:

Therese wrote:
There is a dichotomy between the more developed countries where genders are tending to grow closer together, and underdeveloped counties where gender separation is much greater.

Jo?o replied:
It sounds plausible to me. Can that be backed up with some research?

That's funny! Just read a daily newspaper published in a cosmopolitan area, and you'll find all the evidence you need. It's the section called "World News." My primary reference is the daily San Francisco Chronicle and sometimes an Internet article or two. Since this is an astrological forum, it's best to simply look at biographies in the context of birth charts.

Therese wrote:
It would probably be a good idea to shift polarity as such away from physical gender and more toward two different types of psychological functioning.

Jo?o replied:
That is also one of the conclusions of the paper I've linked, i.e., there does not seem to exist correlation between physical gender and psychological gender traits. But that does not eliminate the notion that some traits may be more "masculine", others "feminine". Maybe it is the names "masculine/feminine" that should be changed to something other?

The polarity traits I've outlined can easily be called "solar" or "lunar."

If you proceed with your research....

My research was basically finished some years ago. My current study involves biographies and birth charts.

...maybe you could look at the paper I've mentioned, and see the attributes they worked with, and see how they are measured. For instance, "Empathy", which traditionally one would consider more "feminine" than "masculine" is measured through a "Interpersonal Reactivity Index" survey

That trait and others aren't really part of the basic polarity question. "Empathy," for example, would be linked to Venus astrologically rather than sign polarity. These deeper psychological traits are all planetary as the Gauquelins showed us. This is one of the major areas where astrology goes off the track. Simply because a sign happens to be associated with a planet, astrologers then transfer traits of that planet to the sign. Or often vice versa as well. It's all muddled.

(Please note that I come from a Computer Science background, so I am way out of my area of expertise here, regarding subjects of Psychology for which I am just a curious amateur..)

Then we don't have a level playing field. I have two psychology degrees (University of California at Berkeley, California and San Francisco State University) plus a teaching degree. I was a counselor and therapist before I decided I'd learn more and be able to contribute more to astrology by the study of astrology itself.

This thread has gone off topic as the focus is how the outer planets or gods might relate to signs of the zodiac. For further discussion and illustration of polarity a new Polarity thread would be more appropriate.

Thank you for your replies, Jo?o. I'm sorry that my time is very limited, and for now I don't really have time or energy to check additional articles and research. At this stage in my life I primarily study horoscopes and sometimes test principles via statistics. I have little patience with the endless rhetoric and argument that fills astrological forums. I don't understand why there is so little discussion of biographies, birth charts and real life events and behavior.

Yeah I wondered that too, but then the luminaries both get one sign each so we obviously have a precedent where we can make especial exceptions for varying reasons. Perhaps the outer planets can get the same treatment.

As for Uranus with Aquarius, you may find the discussion currently taking place on the philosophy section interesting:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8075

But the luminaries, in spite of their differences, are fundamentally a pair. They both represent the self, the ego, and personal creative power. And furthermore it seems the other planets are distributed as a pair based on the luminaries. It also seems very arbitrary to me that the outer planets are distributed only on Solar half (Uranus to Aquarius, Neptune to Pisces, Pluto to Aries) rather than the Lunar half. The Lunar half distributions of the extra signs would proceed as Uranus to Capricorn, Neptune in Sagittarius, Pluto in Scorpio. I don't see why the Lunar half isn't given extra planets.

Here is some information on California Pacific University from which John Gray reportedly received his Ph.D. The school was located in San Rafael, California which tends to be a locale for innovative educational concepts and movements. The first conferences on Vedic Astrology (Jyotish) were held in San Rafael. (I happened to have lived near that area which is north across the Golden Gate Bridge from San Francisco.)
------------------------------------------------

For the legality of CPU degrees: http://columbiapacificuniversity.org/

The Columbia Pacific University .org Website attempts to provide an accurate and comprehensive background resource for employers, state and local governments, and academic institutions regarding the validity of academic degrees awarded by Columbia Pacific University over the last twenty-six years.

This Website has been developed independent of any principals associated with Columbia Pacific University and therefore is not affiliated with, and does not represent, Columbia Pacific University in any manner.

"CPU (Columbia Pacific University) degrees awarded before June 25, 1997 are legally valid. Your degree, and any credential or license you received by virtue of the degree, should not be (negatively) affected. CPU had legal approval to operate (in the State of California) until June 25, 1997, and the degrees it issued (conferred) before June 25, 1997 are legal (valid)." Source: Bureau for Private Post secondary and Vocational Education (BPPVE) - State of California - 400 R Street, Suite 5000, Sacramento, CA 95814 (916) 445-3427
Fax (916) 323-6571 bppve@dca.ca.gov

------------------------------------------------

Type Non-traditional; Distance Learning
Location San Rafael, California, USA

Columbia Pacific University (CPU) was an unaccredited nontraditional distance learning school in California. It was founded in 1978 by Richard Crews, a Harvard-trained psychiatrist, and Lester Carr, a former president of Lewis University, and operated with state approval. Distance learning and education authority John Bear gave "high marks" to the school in his 1982 "Bears' Guide to Non-Traditional College Degrees, 8th edition."

CPU was closed by California court order in 2000.[5] The court also ruled that CPU had granted degrees legally between 1978 and mid-1997, a period when it was approved for operation by the State of California.
CPU alumni acquired all rights to the CPU name and registered a "Columbia Pacific University" non-profit organization in Delaware. The CPU Press continues its publication program.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

However, as to the organization (CPPVE) that closed down CPU:

"In conclusion, it is only fair to mention that the Governor of California (Pete Wilson) closed down the CPPVE after its treatment of CPU, stating that he couldn't allow such the renegade bureaucracy to continue after being caught carrying out the reprisals and vendattas it was caught carrying out against California schools."
http://www.degreeinfo.com/general-dista ... legal.html

From the same forum:
"I guess I should wade in here, given the mention of my name. Answer: Columbia Pacific U degrees are fully legal and California state approved until June of 1997. That is the month when the administrative court in California sided with the state's CPPVE decision to not reapprove CPU. The current California department (the BPPVE) will back up what I have just written. Whether the degree will be recognized in another state is another matter..."

Earon Kavanagh

End of quotes

As someone commented on a forum (I've lost the reference...), John Gray could care less about any of this as he's laughing all the way to the bank. His messages have spoken to millions as reflected in world wide book sales and conferences. He does belong to accredited psychological organizations as noted on book jackets.

So John Gray is not an outlaw in professional psychological circles. For myself, I stand by what he has written about gender differences which I've adapted to astrology in regard to solar and lunar principles.

Bogdan574 wrote:

It also seems very arbitrary to me that the outer planets are distributed only on Solar half (Uranus to Aquarius, Neptune to Pisces, Pluto to Aries) rather than the Lunar half. The Lunar half distributions of the extra signs would proceed as Uranus to Capricorn, Neptune in Sagittarius, Pluto in Scorpio. I don't see why the Lunar half isn't given extra planets.

Read more carefully, Bogdan, and study the diagram posted at the beginning of this thread. The lunar side of the zodiac runs from Aquarius forward through Cancer. (Or Cancer backwards through Aquarius)

Uranus aligns with lunar side Aquarius.
Nepune aligns with lunar side Pisces.
Pluto aligns with lunar side Aries.

Therese Hamilton wrote:So John Gray is not an outlaw in professional psychological circles. For myself, I stand by what he has written about gender differences which I've adapted to astrology in regard to solar and lunar principles.

Hi Therese,

just to make it clear, my purpose is not bashing John Gray, since I don't know the man, and I don't care about him in anyway. I only replied to your message about how Astrology should rely on the research of other disciplines.

However, you gave an example based on the book of John Gray. I've checked some resources and all indications points to a legally valid PhD degree, albeit a low credibility one. Since you said that you hold 2 degrees in Academia, and you even explicitly said the names of the Universities (which are pretty credible, from my POV), I'm pretty confident you can imagine the requirements and amount of work needed for obtaining a PhD from a credible University, instead of from a non credible one..

I also made it clear that I do not hold any degree in psychology. My degrees are all in Computer Science (Artificial Intelligence and Statistics) where I do my main research and scientific publications.

Considering my academic background, and life itself, I've grown pretty suspicious for the claiming of certain type of people, and there are some "indicators". Consider for instance the following quotations from two biographies:

John Gray's Professional Bio wrote: John Gray is the leading relationship expert in the world. His relationship and health books have sold over 50 million copies in 50 different languages. His groundbreaking book, Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus, is the best-selling non-fiction book of all time. (...)

http://www.marsvenus.com/john-gray-bio.htm

Daniel Kahneman biography wrote: Daniel Kahneman is a Senior Scholar at the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs. He is also Professor of Psychology and Public Affairs Emeritus at the Woodrow Wilson School, the Eugene Higgins Professor of Psychology Emeritus at Princeton University, and a fellow of the Center for Rationality at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. (...)

https://www.princeton.edu/~kahneman/biography.html

You may know the first subject, the leading expert in the world author of the groundbreaking book of relationships. But the second subject is only a Nobel Prize winner for his "notable work on the psychology of judgment and decision-making, behavioral economics and hedonic psychology". They are not from the same subfield, but that is not my point. My point is the difference on the "hype" quantity on both excerpts.
If you proceed to check the biographies, you will count many research contributions by one of the subjects (peer-reviewed contributions), and I could find none for the other.

I hope you don't get me wrong Therese, I was not trying to criticize you, and anyone is free to choose his/her research sources. My only opinion is that Astrology deserves to benefit from research from the best possible sources.

This discussion is a bit off-topic and quite irrelevant, so, in my opinion, there's no point proceeding with it..


Regards,
Jo?o Ventura

I get what you're saying, Jo?o. Public hype versus true professionalism. But that's the way today's world operates. Welcome to a media controlled world!

I only replied to your message about how Astrology should rely on the research of other disciplines.

Perhaps we should be more lenient and state simply that astrologers should remain updated on published information from other disciplines. There's a fair amount of questionable academic "research" out there. One can always find a study "B" or "C" that contradicts study "A."

In describing psychology and careers related to sidereal signs that appear have affinity with the three outer planets, I?m beginning with Neptune as I haven?t yet covered Neptune and Pisces on my web site.

Neptune and Mythology

By the fourth century B.C.E., Neptunus, Roman god of the waters, had come to be associated with Poseidon, Greek god of the sea. Poseidon was known as the ?earthshaker? because of his habit of creating earthquakes and storms at sea. He possessed an irascible and unsettled nature and loved speed and adventure, racing his chariot over the waves so fast that the axle of the chariot remained dry. It was Poseidon?s responsibility to determine the victor in naval battles, and he didn?t hesitate to send storms to destroy enemy fleets.

Poseidon shared a number of traits with Ares (Mars). Aggressive and tempestuous, Poseidon didn?t take kindly to being told what to do by his brother, Zeus. Poseidon supported the Greeks during the Trojan war, echoing the boundlessness of Pisces by claiming that the earth belonged to all the gods in common.

Poseidon also continually tried to expand his authority by disputing the ownership of various land and cities with the other gods. The restless sometimes argumentative nature of the mythological Poseidon/Neptune is in keeping with the traits of sidereal Pisces--a restless sign often lacking forethought and serenity, but filled with enthusiasm for the adventure of life. Like Jupiter, the traditional lord of Pisces, Poseidon retained firm sovereignty over his domain and was continually trying to extend his powers and influence.

Poseidon stirred up storms at sea and granted victory or defeat in naval battles. He liked transforming himself and others, such as changing men to women and vice versa. (A reference to theater arts reflected in many births in sidereal Pisces.)

?Poseidon grants miraculous powers....therefore when anything extraordinary or inexplicable happened the Greeks used to exclaim, ?Oh Poseidon, your cunning.?? (Larousse Concise Encyclopedia of Greek and Roman Mythology, 1965, pp. 245-247.

Traits observed in sidereal Pisces that can be related to the mythology of Neptune:

1. A craving for adventure and change, often a great love of travel as an avenue for something new to explore.

2. A firm belief that what one hopes for will make it real.

3. Pretense and imagination, thus a relationship to theater arts and cinama.

4. The ability to hold two totally contradictory beliefs or live two contradictory life styles, but seeing no problem with the contradiction, as if it doesn?t exist. (The two fish of Pisces reflect this duality.)

5. A love of mystery and the mysterious, ?otherworldly? interests. It?s more fun to believe in a mystery and the unknown than to use logic or science to figure out the mystery.

The traditional lord of Pisces is Jupiter with the influence of Neptune. A few brief biographies out of hundreds in AstroDatabank that suggest a Neptunian influence are listed below. (A reminder to tropical readers that most of these planetary positions would be in Aries.)

Marianne Alirza, a poster child for sidereal Pisces:
Sagittarius 4 Ascendant; Moon, Sun, Ketu and Venus in Pisces in the 4th sign.
American adventuress who married an Arab and lived in his harem. They had five children before he divorced her for an Arab woman. Marianne wrote a book about her life in Saudi Arabia, At the Drop of a Veil. (Pisces, filled with enthusiasm and ready for new adventures. Also an attraction to the mysterious, new and unknown.)

Joan Grant, American writer of metaphysical novels of her past incarnations, primarily in Egypt. She dictated her novels while in a light trance. (Ascendant Taurus-Gemini cusp; Mercury, Sun and Moon in Pisces)

Ram Dass (Richard Alpert), educator, author of Be Here Now on eastern spirituality and metaphysics. (25 Gemini ascendant, MC, Rahu, Uranus, Sun in Pisces)

Elizabeth Clare Prophet, New Age minister and religious figure; had spiritual visions including those from ascended masters; 27 Gemini ascendant, Jupiter M.C., Mercury, Sun, Saturn in Pisces)

Media, Theater and Film:

David Frost, British TV personality, actor, producer and host interviewer; (28 Gemini ascendant, Mercury, Sun, Saturn in 10th, Pisces)

Daniel Toscan du Plantier, French TV producer and executive, director and administrator of GIE France Cinema; (28 Gemini ascendant, M.C.,Ketu, Venus, Sun in Pisces, 10th)

Ken Howard, American actor, writer, musician and producer; received Theater World Award in 1969; (8 Gemini ascendant, Sun, Mercury in Pisces 10th)

(The Jupiter influence on Pisces results in a number of executive, political and film and theater director careers not listed here. These may be related to Jupiter?s mythological influence as king of the gods. Jupiter?s ?kingly? and expansive influence combines well with the externalized active energy of sidereal Pisces. Sidereal Piscean careers tend to link the individual to many other people throughout life.)

The Relationship of Uranus to Sidereal Aquarius

When we review mythology we discover that Uranus is a remote as well as a tragic figure.

Uranus is the most ancient of the gods as Gaia (Mother Earth) was the first to emerge from Chaos, and it was she who brought forth Uranus, the starry sky. Isabelle Pagan (From Pioneer to Poet) describes Uranus well:

The impression left upon the mind of the student after meditating on the myths...is of something remote, far-off, immeasurable, vast, indescribable and undefinable.

Sidereal Aquarius (as tropical Pisces) has been called the victim or martyr. Why is this when the traditional lord of Pisces, Jupiter, the ruler of all the gods with supreme power was never anyone?s victim? The myths of Uranus and Cronus (later Saturn) much better relate to victimization. With Uranus Gaia bore the Titans, Cyclops and Cronus. However, Uranus hated his children and refused to let them see the light; he pushed them back into the lap of Gaia.

However, with a sickle given to him by Gaia, Cronus castrated Uranus and destroyed his power of generation. Cronus took over the role of leadership, though he himself was later displaced by his son Zeus. The myth of Uranus at least partly explains why the planet has been associated with unexpected disasters and sudden events. There is also the suggestion that since Uranus is the most remote of all the planetary gods, this energy may relate to deeper psychic and spiritual realms unseen by ordinary men and women.

It is surprising, however, how often the Uranian myth is reflected in Aquarian stelliums, either as a life pattern or a sudden tragic life-changing event or sudden death. Here is a sample of men and women from AstroDatabank 4 with the Sun, Mercury, Venus and Saturn (the lords of the Aquarian trigon) in sidereal Aquarius:

Sonny Bono, American entertainer who did a show business act with his partner, Cher. He was killed in a skiing accident on 1/05/1998 when he hit a tree in South Lake Tahoe, CA.

Roger B. Chaffee, American astronaut who died, along with Virgil Girssom and Edward White, in a grounded Apollo spacecraft when a flash fire occurred during a simulated flight.

Emmalyne Corneau, American child, the first of three girls taken from her parents by the social services for her protection. Emmalyne's parents, Rebecca and David Dorneau belonged to a strict religious sect called "The Body" that rejects modern medicine and advocates faith healing. Rebecca carried a paddle tied to her waist that she used to discipline her kids, leaving welts.

Franz Rademacher, German Nazi, the "Jewish expert" of the Foreign Office and supervisor of the murder of Jews in Belgrade from October 1941. He was tried as a war criminal and given a prison sentence.

Anicka Rodman, American fashion model and writer of an autobiography. She met Dennis Rodman in 1987, married him, and his abuse began. Anickta wrote that he made her life a hell with his violence and his womanizing, that he gave her STD's and insisted on four abortions.

Reese Rosenthal, American infant mortality, the son of Richard and Laura Rosenthal, born with pulmonary hypoplasma; lived 13 hours 12 minutes. AA 36539

Attorney 4263: American attorney; a retired army officer. Very high IQ. Weekend alcoholic. He died of brain cancer, 7/12/1975. AA 4263

Incest Victim 7757: American incest victim who was sexually abused as a child by her alcoholic father. She had five abortions, three miscarriages and no children. A portly woman, she weighed approximately 300 pounds. A 7757

Infant Mortality 7562: British case of infant mortality who died from internal hemorrhaging 2/16/1935, 140 GMT. A 7562

Medical Epilepsy 14043: American case of epilepsy from the age of six who is doing fine on medication. A 14043

Suicide Hanged 7565: American suicide case by hanging. AA 7565

Transvestite 25910: Brazilian transvestite, prostitute. A 35910

Whereas tropical Aquarius is a somewhat idealized sign, sidereal Aquarius is indeed like tropical Pisces in that it tends to be a victim or suffer misfortune far more than the average. This points to the myths surrounding Uranus, the god of the starry sky who was disposed and castrated by his own son.

Of course all the zodiac signs have a number of layers of meaning relating to different types of symbolism such as the ruling and exalted planets, stars and lunar mansions. Here I?m only concerned with personalities whose lives seem to reflect aspects of the Uranian myth. I've done different types of searches in AstroDatabank, and most Aquarius searches pull up a large number of tragedies, more so than any other sign of the (sidereal) zodiac.

Plutonian Myth and Sidereal Aries

The Ram and Pluto
In Your Character in the Zodiac Rupert Gleadow notes that the Ram, the symbol of Aries, was not part of the early Babylonian zodiac, but came instead from Egypt. The Ram was the sacred animal of the god Amun, ?who was originally The Hidden One, that is to say the Unknown Force?an expression which might mean either the life-force or the Most High God?for the universal God was known in Egypt and India long before monotheism came...? (pp 44-45)

This interesting bit of history brings us directly to Pluto?s affinity with sidereal Aries which has been suggested by some western sidereal astrologers of the Fagan school. The ancient Zoroastrian Fragment derived from Gregory of Nicaea assigned Pluto as the coinhabitant of Aries along with Mars. As a plausible co-lord of Aries, Pluto?s history is particularly interesting.

Called Hades in ancient Greece, this brother of Zeus was given the portion of the underworld as his domain. The one-eyed cyclops (an interesting reference to the numeral One?Aries is the first sign of the zodiac) presented Hades with the cap of invisibility, a symbol that his realm was not visible to mortal eyes. (It can be observed that those with many planets in sidereal Aries [tropical Taurus] often don't feel the need to share thoughts or feelings with other people. They can be maddingly uncommunicative.)

Pluto or Pluton is best known for the part he played in the mythology of Demeter, the corn goddess. Appearing in an instant from within the earth, Pluton abducted Demeter?s daughter, Persephone, to become his queen in the underworld. She thereafter spent four months of the year in Pluto?s hidden realm and eight months in the sunlight with her mother as crops grew and were harvested.

When Hades was thought of the husband of Persephone, daughter of the corn goddess, he was called Pluton after Ploutos who rules wealth. Pluto rules under the earth and sends up shoots that grow from seeds. Farmers prayed to Pluto and Persephone for the germination of seeds and fruitful crops. Together with Demeter and Persephone Pluto/Pluton received a tithe of the crops. Pluton was also known as the all-receiver, and Pankoies, He who brings rest to all after they have toiled and suffered on earth.

Over time Pluto became linked to Ploutos, the Giver of Wealth. Ploutos was Demeter?s son, and so half brother to Persephone. Ploutos wonders over the earth and gives riches (Ploutos) to all he meets. It was said that Zeus struck him blind in order to prevent him from corrupting the good by rewarding them with riches.

Ploutos? riches are distributed regardless of merit. Like Pluto, Ploutos lived under the earth and ruled over the subterranean storage rooms where grain was kept. Ploutos represents the growth of the corn and was often shown holding the cornucopia of plenty. (Mythology notes from the Larousse Concise Encyclopedia of Greek and Roman Mythology, 1969)

So by digging deeper into Pluto?s symbolism we move past Hades? association with fear and death, and find some new symbolism that may be applied to sidereal Aries. Pluto?s realm lies beneath the earth, a locale invisible to human eyes. Virginia Beach clairvoyant Edgar Cayce suggested a possible Pluto-Vulcan link when he stated that "Pluto and Vulcan were one and the same." (826-9) If this is true, then the planet Pluto may also be related to volcanic eruptions and explosions.

Vulcan was the smith of the gods as well as husband to Venus, the goddess associated with Libra, the sign opposite to Aries as well as Taurus, the sign adjoining Aries. Perhaps we might expect Aries to be associated with earth-sciences: archaeology, paleontology or any activity connected with rocks, gems, stones or the metals that are associated with Mars, the traditional lord of Aries.

Some mythological concepts connected to Pluto that may apply to sidereal Aries:

1. ONE who stands alone to make his way in life. A self-made man or woman.

2. A life emphasis on wealth, either wealth of the earth or actual monetary wealth and possessions.

3. Anything hidden or invisible

4. Underground or secret activities or interests (legal or illegal)

5. A dramatic life change, ?coming back from the dead? so to speak. (Persephone?s four months in Hades with Pluto followed by her ?resurrection? to live eight months with her mother, Demeter.)

Birth Charts that suggest motifs from Plutonian Mythology:

The Persephone Myth (kidnapping and disappearance):

Chandra Levy, American political intern who disappeared without a trace.
29 Cancer ascendant, Ketu, Sun, Mercury, M.C. in Aries
Because she had been so secretive about whom she was dating, the media began to check out married Congressman Gary Condit. Chandra?s body was later found in a Washington D.C. wooded park.

Gary Steven Krist, American noted kidnapper
Leo risinig, Sun at 16 Aries trine ascendant
With his friend, Ruth E. Schier, Krist designed and built a ventilated coffin for kidnap victim Barbara Mackle. A daughter in a wealthy family, she was buried alive with a four day air supply 12/17/1968. Mackle was rescued while still alive and Krist was caught with the ransom money in the Florida swamps. (kidnapping for money)

Pasteur Douce, kidnap victim
Scorpio ascendant, Mercury, Sun, Venus, Moon in Aries 6th
Belgian business owner of a bookstore that also served as a refuge for homosexuals and pedophiles; kidnapped in July 1990, body found months later in the forest of Fontainebleau.

Emphasis on Wealth (and what is secret and unknown):

Kenneth Lay, American CEO, chairman of Enron
Leo ascendant, Sun and Moon in Aries, 8th
Lay filed for the biggest bankruptcy in U.S. history. Accounting scandals resulted in numerous stockholders losing their life savings and retirement security. One of the greatest American finanical scandals.

Bill Meridian, American financial astrologer
Sagittarius ascendant, Rahu, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury in Aries 5th
Bill worked for the United Arab Emirates in an investment company in Abu Dhabi from 1989. He designed the "AstroAnalyst" and "Financial Trader" programs, the first astrological financial software, and authored books on stock trading.

The Vulcan Myth: (source of Pluto?s sometimes cited link to fire, fire arms and explosions?)

Catherine Krafft, a French scientist who was a specialist in the study of volcanoes! Catherine has the Sun, Moon and Mercury in sidereal Aries.

Another chart that may reflect the mythology of Vulcan/Hephaistos as the smith God is that of
Gabriel Loire.
Cancer ascendant, Sun, Mars, Mercury in Aries 10th;
Loire was a French stained glass artist and painter. He invented new techniques for the creation of stained lass consisting of a one-inch-thick glass slab inserted in cement. Loire work became extremely well known and admired, seen at the Grace Cathedral in San Francisco, and other large cathedrals.

Jeffrey Burgess, American military death
Leo ascendant, Sun, Mars, Mercury, M.C. in Aries
Burgess, a US Marine Corps Lance Corporal was killed in Iraq March 25, 2004 when his vehicle ran over an explosive device near Fallujah. From early in life he wanted to be a drummer, a police officer, and a soldier.

The Chernobyl Explosion in Ukraine in 1986 had Uranus on a Scorpio ascendant (as well as Moon and Saturn in Scorpio), but also Rahu and the Sun in Aries. (26 April, 1986, 1:23 a.m., Chernobyl, Ukraine)

Resurrection and a New Start:

George Carlin, American comedienne
Cancer ascendant, Uranus, Mercury Sun in Aries in 10th
After becoming one of the hottest acts in the country, Carlin went down the self-destruct trail with drugs and alcohol. After a serious car accident and heart attack he put his life back in order and won back his popularity.

These birth charts suggest that perhaps we should forgo complex psychological explanations of the link of mythology to signs of the zodiac. Real lives most often simply reflect a portion of a god?s mythology as a single event, sometimes traumatic, or an overall life emphasis reflected in a person?s chosen work.

All signs of the zodiac have multiple avenues of expression when they are blended with planets via aspects or have the addition of the symbolism of ruling and exalted planets. In the cases noted here, Plutonian myths seem to be reflected in the selected birth charts with emphasis in Aries. Aries, of course has other symbolism related on the exalted Sun, triplicity lord Jupiter, and domicile lord Mars. These three celestial bodies are the domicile lords of the Aries trigon which includes Leo and Sagittarius.

June 11, 2014: Additional note on Pluto's relationship to Aries

In her article "Why Hellenistic Planetary Order?" (ISAR Journal April 2014) Naomi Bennett points out the role of scared geometry and average mean distance from the earth in Hellenistic planetary order. She states:

"If we maintain this planetary order of Average Mean Distance, then Uranus must be assigned to Aquarius, Neptune to Pisces and Pluto to Aries. This is not haphazard. This is beyond coincidence."

Naomi further explains that in 1933 Carl Payne Tobey discovered the principle of the structure of sacred geometry embedded in astrology's design. Toby placed the odds in favor of mean distance being the factor that determined what the ancients called "rulership" of the planets over the zodiacal signs at 6,652,799 to 1. Naomi concludes that from this mathematical point of view alone, Pluto must coincide with Aries.

This is certainly a concept that astrologers might want to investigate for themselves. Here is the link to Naomi's article:

http://www.learnastrologynow.com/learna ... _2014.html

Therese,

Thanks for cross-referencing my article on "Why Hellenistic Planetary Order?" that was published in the ISAR Journal last April. It is very clear from my research in the past 15 years and the discoveries of Carl Payne Tobey back in 1933 that there is an astronomical basis for ordering the planets as Moon, Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn.

With this principle of Average Mean Distance for Hellenistic Planetary Order, this same pattern was maintained with the discovery of Uranus assigned to Aquarius, Neptune to Pisces. But astrologers in the 1930's and 1940's made the mistake of assigning Pluto to Scorpio. It should be assigned to Aries to maintain the Average Mean Distance principle.

I do have a separate article on my website regarding Pluto ruling Aries. The url is:
http://www.learnastrologynow.com/learna ... orpio.html


I am not an advocate of the sidereal zodiac related to this concept. I think they are separate issues that need separate discussions.

Hi Naomi,

Of course I agree that for many reasons, including Average Mean Distance, Pluto belongs with Aries. The nature and symbolism of Pluto doesn't fit well with the observed characteristics of tropical Aries, which is why this particular topic here on Skyscript exits. But this is a separate study apart from Average Mean Distance, as you said.

I am puzzled as to why so many astrologers see an affinity between Pluto and tropical Scorpio. Tropical Scorpio tends to be very relationship oriented, while Pluto acts alone and can be psychologically isolated. Zip Dobyns wrote that since Scorpio is a water sign, "it is naturally driven by the need for fusion with another to satisfy strong dependency needs." (Finding the Person in the Horoscope, p. 30)

Whether or not we agree with that particular view of Scorpio, emphasis on relating is diametrically opposed to the observed nature of Pluto. Just now I found Tobey's faded little booklet on Pluto in my library. Below in part is what he wrote about Pluto in the first house. I know you have that booklet as well, but for the benefit of other readers:

"The individual has a will of his own, and can be somewhat stand-offish. He is an individualist and is not seeking the advice of others. It is not easy for him to be cooperative...He interprets everything in terms of its relation to himself..." (Pluto and its Principles, 1954, p. 12)

Western sidereal astrologers also observed Pluto to be individualistic and generally a loner. But these characteristics aren't mentioned in today's tropical literature. I believe the underlying reason is that tropical astrologers are trying to make Pluto fit Scorpio.