Mark wrote:

Therese wrote:
Yes, the four winds were the original assignments to the trigons. But as we are discovering in modern times, the trigons have additional much greater importance just as Dorotheus emphasized.

Mark replied:
Not sure what exactly you mean here. You are referring to the planetary ruler of each trigon? Interestingly, this idea seems to derive from Babylonian astrology too. However, the notion of night and day rulers seems a purely Greek development.

I see that I combined two different thoughts or concepts in my statement. To clarify:

(A) Modern tropical astrology has given a lot of psychological emphasis to the trigons which was not noted by earlier authors prior to Alan Leo and those who followed him. Then there are those who are attempting to apply triplicity rulerships in their work as per Dorotheus. I'm not sure how that is working out, and I'm not sure how they are being used. Perhaps in timing the length of life? The classical revival has received much more attention in the UK and Europe than in America where I live.

(B) I've been using the Dorotheus triplicity rulerships to help define the nature of sidereal trigons. But I don't think tropical astrologers are looking at triplicity lords in the same way. http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/aatriplicities2013.htm (Ancient Triplcities: Key to the Sidereal Zodiac)

But I don't see Dorotheus as relating to the southern hemisphere question. Wouldn't we have to take each sign individually and look at traits that are supposedly related to the seasons? I see that there are two separate topics here: (1) Beginning the tropical zodiac at the northern hemisphere spring equinox and (2) traits that are supposedly related to different seasons.

(1) could be true, but (2) doesn't necessarily follow. When one thinks about it, the major problem with the tropical zodiac (the southern hemisphere) is precisely how that zodiac is defined: Seasonal

Michael Sternbach wrote:

While the seasonal changes concerning most of the Northern hemisphere are certainly symbolic for the signs, I would say they aren't totally based on this; it's just one level of correspondence. For instance, it's hard to see how the signs' elemental attribution would have been directly derived from the seasons.

I think your right that this transcends any simplistic seasonal analogy. The sign associations were not initially linked to the four elements at all. For example Ptolemy makes no reference to them.

Michael Sternbach wrote:

As far as the classic domiciles are concerned, these reflect the order of the planets in the Solar system (Sun in Leo, Mercury in Virgo etc.). Indeed star catalogues in ancient Greece started with Leo and not with Aries (Franz Boll: Aus der Offenbarung Johannis).

That is an interesting point. In hellenistic astrology the so called Thema Mundi or world horoscope was used as a teaching tool and Cancer was the rising sign in it.

Although the relationship of the signs to both luminaries by aspect was a also an important way the signs were described in ancient astrology. Hence both the Saturn ruled signs (Capricorn + Aquarius) were each in opposition to the sign of a luminary. The Leo starting point reminds me that esoteric groups like the Golden Dawn also started their zodiac with Leo. Although that seemed linked to focus on the Great Pyramid of Giza. More fundamentally, we have the signs of the two luminaries together. Clearly, the later Perso-Arabic assignations were not related to season. Cancer by season is not cold + wet and Sagittarius is not hot + dry. Ptolemy?s qualities for the signs don?t link directly into seasons either.

Michael Sternbach wrote:

Note that the unequal distribution of land and water can be seen reflected in the northern half of the zodiac (relative to the celestial equator) containing two earth signs, the southern half containing two water signs. In contrast (the Yin in the Yang, and vice versa), the one water sign in the northern half - Cancer, the most northern sign - is symbolic of earth's north-pole which has no land mass, whereas the one earth sign in the southern half - Capricorn, opposite to Cancer - represents the south-pole which is a continent. Thus western astrology's zodiac is really analogous to the entire earth. I like to envision it as the space surrounding the earth (or the plane of earth's orbit projected into infinity).

That is a beautiful way of putting it. I haven?t seen anyone make that point before. Did you come up with this idea yourself? If so kudos to you. You should copyright that before someone else claims it on the internet! We have a northern hemisphere which is 40% land and 60% water while the southern hemisphere is only 20% land and 80% water. As you point out the zodiacal signs traditional direction expresses that really well.

Michael Sternbach wrote:

In practical terms, Mark's sample charts leave me without a doubt that the Zodiac doesn't need to be modified for south hemisphere nativities.

Yes. The more charts I examine the more convinced I am of that. This seems to be one of those theoretical objections that doesn?t appear to cause any practical problems. The challenge is explaining why it works the way it does not if it works.

Michael Sternbach wrote:

Also, South American astrologers are generally quite happy with using the zodiac as given.

Indeed. One of our former moderators here Yuzuru is from Brazil and he was clear that the normal tropical zodiac worked fine for all the charts he worked with. Similarly, Clelia Romano who posts here is also Brazilian and teaches astrology with the signs in the traditional way. We have also had several Australians here who have reported no problems. Deborah Houlding has also stated that horary seems to work perfectly well when she has visited Australia.

Mark

Therese Hamilton wrote: India still considers the solstice and equinox points important times to schedule festivals. They are just not aligned with signs of the zodiac.

Hi Therese

I would question this a little. I remember a couple of years ago I was in Thailand and celebrated the Thai new year, Songkran, on Koh Phangan, and was speaking to some locals and I learned that it was the new year as this was the time which indicated that the light and dark balance changes. In other words they were celebrating the spring equinox. When I came home I examined it a bit more and it turns out they're celebrating the beginning of Aries as the spring equinox and using the sidereal zodiac to do it. In addition, many eastern cultures celebrate the "turning north of the sun" (the winter solstice) as the ingress of the sun into Capricorn, but the sidereal capricorn. I do not think this is as divorced as we may want to think.

The truth is that now we have the software and data tools to dig fairly deeply into that question. I've made some small beginnings into this question on the sidereal forum. We no longer need to speculate as we have many thousands of birth charts that can be examined.

I don't think we should turn this into a sidereal vs tropical debate, as you say, we could open a new thread for that. But it's worth pointing out that we ought to celebrate what was being used with what they thought they were using. For example, someone could measure something sidereal and see be under the mistake that what was being measured was a tropical phenomenon. It is, perhaps, not as clear cut as we might think. Hence my example above. Songkran is clearly measured using a sidereal zodiac, but the symbolic meaning behind it is tropical.

Mark wrote: That is an interesting point. In hellenistic astrology the Thema Mundi or world horoscope was used as a teaching tool and Cancer was the rising sign in it.

Right it's possible that the domiciles are actually derived from the Thema Mundi instead - Luminaries from the ascendant, Moon and sun respectively.

This appeals to me as it bypasses the arguments about the problem of the southern hemisphere as well as fitting snugly with siderealist positions as well. If we use the thema mundi and put a question mark over Ptolemy's logic then there is really no problem at all.

I have edited my post of 15 March but it mainly concerns the geography rather than astrology

Matthew

Paul wrote:
Right, Martin Gansten made this point in one of the discussions on tropical and sidereal that actually the domicile scheme needs nothing to do with seasons at all but could be based from the thema mundi instead.

.

Are you and/or Martin suggesting here the Thema Mundi does not have a seasonal rationale?

''Planetary domiciles

The Sun and Moon, the two luminaries, are assigned to the two signs that correspond to the brightest and warmest times of the year in the Northern Hemisphere, Cancer and Leo. The other planets are assigned to signs by halving the zodiac between Cancer and Leo and assigning each planet to one sign on the solar half and each on the lunar half. Mercury is assigned to the two signs next to the luminaries, Gemini and Virgo, because it never travels more than one sign away from the Sun. Venus is assigned to the next two signs, Taurus and Libra, because it never gets more than two signs away. Jupiter and Mars are assigned to their signs Sagittarius and Pisces, and Aries and Scorpio, respectively, in this same way. Finally Saturn is assigned to Capricorn and Aquarius because of the cold and lack of light during this time of the year''
.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thema_Mundi

Nixx wrote: Are you and/or Martin suggesting here the Thema Mundi does not have a seasonal rationale?

Right I just edited my previous post to remove Martin's name, just in case I am mis-remembering something of his, or confusing it for something else.

But basically there was a discussion, if I can find it I will, about the modes with regards the sidereal zodiac and I questioned whether we have anything 'turning' (cardinal) with the sidereal zodiac, and he made the point that this could be from the Thema Mundi, where the angles are the cardinal angles. I can't actually remember whether Martin explicitly mentioned the same could be used for the assignation of domicile dignity or not, or whether that was something that just occurred to me at the same time.

But in a more direct answer to what you're asking, no I am not suggesting that the Thema Mundi does not have a tropical/seasonal basis - rather, I'm stating that the Thema Mundi, as a construct, could exist independently of the tropical logic, which is, no doubt, how sidereal astrologers view it, and with that in mind, we have a construct which may not necessarily be tropical in foundation, and which could be used as a way of assigning domicile dignity by allotting the Moon to the first house, and then working from there.

I am not stating that I actively believe that this position is how domicile dignity emerged, merely that it's worth not treating Ptolemy's view on it as being representative of some older rationale for assigning domicile dignity, and instead could be just his own attempts at rationalising why the dignities are as they are, or, rather, start where they do.


Ptolemy, Tetrabiblos 1:17

Since of the twelve signs the most northern, which are closer than the others to our zenith and therefore most productive of heat and of warmth are Cancer and Leo, they assigned these to the greatest and most powerful heavenly bodies, that is, to the luminaries, as houses, Leo, which is masculine, to the sun and Cancer, feminine, to the moon

Of course the closest to the zenith would be Gemini and Cancer. So I think one could argue that he was trying to rationalise a system.

Regarding the wiki quote, it's worth keeping in mind that anyone can edit or alter a wikipedia article. The wiki article is describing the system of domiciles as outlined by Ptolemy, but Ptolemy himself doesn't relate this to the Thema Mundi or indeed mention the Thema Mundi at all.

Mark wrote: Indeed. One of our former moderators here Yuzuru is from Brazil and he was clear that the normal tropical zodiac worked fine for all the charts he worked with. Similarly, Clelia Romano who posts here is also Brazilian and teaches astrology with the signs in the traditional way. We have also had several Australians here who have reported no problems. Deborah Houlding has also stated that horary seems to work perfectly well when she has visited Australia.

Mark

In addition, Alice Portman, who you mention in a previous post, is another antipodean astrologer convinced that the domicile rulers do not change in the southern hemisphere (I don't think she uses the other dignities too extensively). Just in case your post implies that she is of the same thinking as Maurice McCann.

Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:27 pm

For the traditional astrologer this raises issues about whether the signs should be reversed or alternatively the dignities for the planets in signs should be reversed. The traditional Irish astrologer Maurice McCann suggested the latter. As Alice Portman points out we also need to consider the implications for the lunar nodes.

Paul wrote:

Therese Hamilton wrote:
India still considers the solstice and equinox points important times to schedule festivals. They are just not aligned with signs of the zodiac.

Paul replied:
I would question this a little. I remember a couple of years ago I was in Thailand and celebrated the Thai new year, Songkran, on Koh Phangan, and was speaking to some locals and I learned that it was the new year as this was the time which indicated that the light and dark balance changes. In other words they were celebrating the spring equinox. When I came home I examined it a bit more and it turns out they're celebrating the beginning of Aries as the spring equinox and using the sidereal zodiac to do it. In addition, many eastern cultures celebrate the "turning north of the sun" (the winter solstice) as the ingress of the sun into Capricorn, but the sidereal Capricorn. I do not think this is as divorced as we may want to think.

Hi Paul,

I'm surprised that this misunderstanding may still exist. The equinoxes and solstices don't align with the beginning of signs in any sidereal zodiac. Sri Yukteswar pointed out that fallacy when he was still alive. (He died in 1936, I believe...) He tried to make astrologers and those who planned festivals realize that the four equinox and solstice points need to be correctly set in the sidereal zodiac. This would place them at this time between 5 and 7 degrees of sidereal signs, depending upon the ayanamsa used to calculate each zodiac.

Therese wrote:
The truth is that now we have the software and data tools to dig fairly deeply into that question. I've made some small beginnings into this question on the sidereal forum. We no longer need to speculate as we have many thousands of birth charts that can be examined.

Paul replied:
I don't think we should turn this into a sidereal vs tropical debate, as you say, we could open a new thread for that.

I don't see how the word "debate" needs to enter zodiac discussions as long as we present actual data and biographies. We can simply sit back and examine astrological principles in light of real life data. The conflict arises when discussion is based on theoretical considerations apart from the lives of real people. If a sign in either zodiac is supposed to mean something, then all we need to do is present birth charts that illustrate that point or concept.

Hence my example above. Songkran is clearly measured using a sidereal zodiac, but the symbolic meaning behind it is tropical.

I'd say that the meaning of the solstices and equinoxes is astronomical rather than "tropical" as such. These are very important turnings in the annual path of the earth around the Sun.

Hi Paul,

I see that the days celebrating Songkran in Thailand follow the actual date of the equinox which is observed on the correct astronomical date. So in Thailand the equinox celebration is apparently prolonged into several days of Songkran to celebrate the increasing light of spring.

I am not sure how well the general public understands the dating of festivals in relation to astrology or astronomy. The equinox and solstice dates are correct in the Thai holiday calendar. The 2014 Thai calendar is here:

http://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/thailand/

Thursday Mar 20 March equinox Season
Sunday Apr 6 Chakri Day National holiday
Monday Apr 7 Chakri Day observed National holiday
Sunday Apr 13 Songkran National holiday
Monday Apr 14 Songkran National holiday
Tuesday Apr 15 Songkran National holiday

Therese Hamilton wrote: I see that the days celebrating Songkran in Thailand follow the actual date of the equinox which is observed on the correct astronomical date.

Hi Therese

I don't want to derail this thread by talking about Songkran, so maybe we should PM if there's any other confusions.

I would just clarify that Songkran is celebrated for three days between 13-15 inclusive, though individual regions may actually in reality celebrate for a few days longer or less than this. Places like Bangkok or ChangMai tend to celebrate for up to a week. However officially it's the 13-15. The term itself, I am told, refers to "a change" and is used to describe an ingress, in this case an ingress into Aries.

Obviously in equinox occurs in reality at around the 20th of March, and Songkran is celebrated about 3 weeks later - when the Sun ingresses into Sidereal Aries.

Of course Thailand has other holidays, but Songkran itself is the historical and cultural new year and, historically, to the turning of the Sun and the equinox.

It seems obvious that in the design of the Thai calendar, the four astronomical cardinal points were included as well as the Sun's ingress into sidereal Aries to mark the New Year. The other three cardinal points are celebrated as single days, but there are no attached festival days as the Songkran days in the spring.

This emphasizes that the solstice and equinox days have continued to be important in eastern countries as special festival days, but these days are in general not connected to the zodiac as such, at least as astrologers use the zodiac signs in their work. The spring equinox is a single day; the Aries ingress marks the beginning of the new year with an extended festival of several days. I suspect the Aries ingress chart is use for political predictions by astrologers.