13 by Tom Mercury would be my choice for LoG because he is in the 10th house and Mars is in the 12th. Jupiter, another candidate, is in the 8th. But as noted above LoG and "manners" are different. The LoG is always strong or stronger than anything else in the chart. The SoM can be weak or strong or both. Ptolemy gives a list that runs, I think, like this 1. A planet in the first house (and I would add in the same sign as the ASC and close to the ASC) is the first choice. If none, then ... 2. Any planet in close aspect to the Mercury and the Moon. For this to happen Mercury and the Moon must also be in aspect, if not then ... 3. We look for the planet or planets that most engage Mercury AND the Moon. This can be done in a variety of ways, but in most cases its done by reception or dispositors. If Mercury is in Aries and the Moon is in Scorpio, then Mars is a strong candidate for SoM. If Mercury is in Taurus and Moon is in Sagittarius and Venus is conjunct Jupiter, they would be SoM. 4. If nothing still, use the Lord of the ASC. In this case I looked at the planets applied to by Mercury and the Moon. Mercury is retrograde and applies to Mars. Moon applies to Jupiter (I don't use the outers). Mars and Jupiter are in trine. When I know who the native is, as I do in this case, I go to Tetrabiblos Book III, and read the section on "The Quality of the Mind (or Soul depending on the translator). In this case we would look under Jupiter and Mars in good condition, and see if it makes sense. It does here. I was first taught that the significator(s) of the manners indicate(s) how the temperament is expressed. I like the idea but I've never been able to put it into practice very well. I haven't even worked out the temperament for this native yet. I think the SoM can be pretty much used as stand alone indicators of the personality or the character traits that run pretty deep. Notice that this idea will be the same in both quadrant and whole sign houses, although we might vary the delineation a bit depending on houses that hold the significators. Here is the quote from the Ashmand translation (I'm told that the Robbins translation is better, but the type is so small I have difficulty reading it): "Conciliated with Mars and being in Glory, Jupiter will make men rough, warlike, skillful in military affairs, dictatorial, refractory, impetuous, daring, free in speech, able in action, fond of disputation, contentious, imperious, generous, ambitious, irascible, judicious, and fortunate." Although Ptolemy emphasizes Jupiter it is the combination that rules. I did a really quick temperament assessment and it comes out melancholic phlegmatic - nothing sanguine. Phlegmatic is the desire nature and it often is shown by people without direction and who look like it. I've never seen his chart, but Michael Moore has the picture perfect phlegmatic physique. Our native does not. Melancholic is the earth temperament and is shown by persistence and pragmatism. If that is governed by a powerful Mars, we get an aggressively persistent native, and that is accurate. Think about that and apply it to Jupiter. I'll post the whole sign chart shortly Quote Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:47 pm
14 by Tom Here is the whole sign chart. Note the Cancer grouping moves to 9 and Mars is now in 1. Anyone change his mind about anything? Quote Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:00 pm
15 by Tom Here is Morinus on this Mars: But in good state and in a favorable house such as the tenth will cause honors and prestige, especially if in exaltation (because exaltation, among the other possible dignities of a planet, is the one most analogous to honors) and not squared or opposed to or in some adverse relation to the Sun or Moon as the luminaries are particularly analogous to honors. In the second it can bring money particularly if favorably aspected by Jupiter which is analogous to wealth, and so on for the other houses. However a malefic even in good state always grants things attended by imperfections, or through evil methods or in difficult ways, or with some accompanying misfortune because of the malefic nature of the planet through which it is more prone to evil than to good. Whence it can be said that malefics in good celestial state in the fortunate houses are like a dissonance in music that has been resolved to produce a consonance. Quote Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:12 pm
mars 16 by Mjacob It makes a big difference to me. I thought him a cruel and dangerous man but now he looks like a saint,ardent yet humble but loved by kings. He could have repented from a life of sin I suppose MJ I repent for mixing up LoG with LoM but it is confusing with so many options given Matthew Goulding Quote Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:49 pm
17 by irisalbus Hello, I know I am a bit late ? while I worked out the few things I could, with the Placidus houses, you went on with manner and the Whole Sign version. But as I have already done it, I hope you do not mind my notes. As originally Tom suggested to stick to Mars only, this is what I did, I considered Mars as ruler and almuten of the ASC, in domicile rulership and in the 12th house (this one ruled by Venus): - a soldier, braggart, with fortune and honour; he will not have fear and be rich; with an "evil tongue"; extravagant and courageous, quick to anger, violent - a mark on his foot; small eyes (Mars + occidental would also give some reddish character to his skin/hair and shortness in stature but there are many planets aspecting Mars so I would not add this part) - he will have some hidden/jealous enemies but he will prevail over them - bad relationship/quarrels/lawsuits with women; not steady in his faith - seeking fullfilment in solitude or in a solitary way. Iris Quote Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:53 pm
18 by Tom It makes a big difference to me. I thought him a cruel and dangerous man but now he looks like a saint,ardent yet humble but loved by kings. He could have repented from a life of sin I suppose Not dangerous, at least not the way I think you mean that. Sometimes his behavior could be considered cruel, but not to the level of torture or anything ling that. Hardly a saint, but his good side was very, very good. - a soldier, braggart, with fortune and honour; Spent time in the military and performed with honor, but that is not what he is principally known for. Not a braggart, but confident. he will not have fear and be rich; with an "evil tongue"; extravagant and courageous, quick to anger, violent Brave, and did all right financially. Nasty vocabulary, generous, short tempered, rarely violent but the potential scared people. - a mark on his foot; small eyes (Mars + occidental would also give some reddish character to his skin/hair and shortness in stature but there are many planets aspecting Mars so I would not add this part) I have no idea if he had a mark on his foot or not. I'll post a link to a photo later today or tomorrow. Not short 6'4" in fact. More on physical characteristics later. - he will have some hidden/jealous enemies but he will prevail over them Interestingly he had enemies, but they weren't hidden, or he had those and I don't know about them. Late in his life he said about his enemies (with much pride), "I outlasted the bastards." - bad relationship/quarrels/lawsuits with women; not steady in his faith 3 failed marriages and they all walked out on him. I'll discuss his faith later. Don't let me forget. - seeking fullfilment in solitude or in a solitary way. In an odd sense, this is true. More later Quote Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:53 pm
19 by Tom From James: i would see this as a person who suffers from the narrowness of their good fortune in some martial area. This is interesting and a case could be made for its accuracy, but we would have to really think about it in order to see it. I'll explain if reminded. mars rules the 1st and 6th here. maybe they are some political person - Not by profession, but he made friends with people in high political office, not for personal gain though. either way i see this is a chart of someone who has reached a certain level of worldly success. Definitely perhaps the mars has acted in a way to drag it down some - sexual desires operating in some 12th house manner that end in removing the potential for continued standing and power.. Mars is part of the success and part of what made it difficult. He liked the ladies and the ladies liked him at least until they married him, which brings up the interesting question: did they like him because of his celebrity or because of other characteristics. Let me say right now as we get closer to identification that we are not dealing with an evil man like a tyrant or criminal. I don't think he ever lost his public standing, which is somewhat surprising given the reasons for his celebrity. Quote Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:06 pm
20 by james_m hi irisalbus, very good. i can't understand how you get this just off the mars placement in placidus! some of it i understand, but i would be very curious to know your full read on the chart if mars in 12th placidus is all you used for this! irisalbus wrote:Hello, I know I am a bit late ? while I worked out the few things I could, with the Placidus houses, you went on with manner and the Whole Sign version. But as I have already done it, I hope you do not mind my notes. As originally Tom suggested to stick to Mars only, this is what I did, I considered Mars as ruler and almuten of the ASC, in domicile rulership and in the 12th house (this one ruled by Venus): - a soldier, braggart, with fortune and honour; he will not have fear and be rich; with an "evil tongue"; extravagant and courageous, quick to anger, violent - a mark on his foot; small eyes (Mars + occidental would also give some reddish character to his skin/hair and shortness in stature but there are many planets aspecting Mars so I would not add this part) - he will have some hidden/jealous enemies but he will prevail over them - bad relationship/quarrels/lawsuits with women; not steady in his faith - seeking fullfilment in solitude or in a solitary way. Iris Quote Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:22 pm
21 by Vasanth Some quick thoughts on Mars -> Mars is in good solar phase; angular in 1st and in its domicile. Only problem could be it being out of sect. But the sect-lord aspects it and hence supports it. Also, Mars in the bound of Venus/Scorpio is a vice. 1. Mars ruling 6th (Aries) in first (Scorpio) could indicate illness or service related work; maybe a workaholic Illness - nature of Mars - some surgery, operation, cutting, tearing, wounds, etc - location - Aries - head; Scorpio - reproductive system, sexual organs, bowels, excretory system, bladder 2. Mars also ruling 3rd by exaltation could indicate illness due to studies; injury in short-distance travel; sibling-rivalry; problems to siblings, etc. 3. Mars rules 5th (based on quadrant house) and is placed in 12th quadrant. I am not sure if this could cause trouble/death to his children. Mars is a key planet, not just because of angularity and its condition; but simply because it is in applying aspect to most of the planets, as such is involved in collection of light. - Mars had separated from Venus - The Sun applies to it by Square - Mercury applies to it - Mars will apply to Jupiter This aspect dyanamics would link Mars to all other areas of life involving the Sun (10th); Jupiter 8th/9th; Mercury 10th/11th I am not sure, who applies to Mars first - Sun, Jupiter or Mercury; clearly Mars has separated from Venus, I think. So Mars is leaving behind or linking Venus significations; and getting involved with Sun, Jupiter, Mercury. The exact aspect chain would provide more clues for delineation. The Venus/Leo ruling 7th and 12th could indicate mistake/loss on involving with a female celebrity. Also Venus is besieged, separates from Mars and applies to Saturn. Last edited by Vasanth on Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total. Quote Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:42 pm
22 by james_m hi tom, i was under the impression this exercise was going to explore the difference between a placidus placement of mars in the 12th, verses a whole sign house read.. not that it matters and my impression appears wrong here, but that was how i was approaching this. it is funny, but i tried to think how i would interpret the mars as if it had more of a 12th house influence then a 1st house influence, in spite of my seeing mars as more prominent and 1st house like. at any rate, i suppose the 2nd part of this exercise is now null and void with the release of your analysis of our comments. oh well! Quote Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:57 pm
23 by Tom hi tom, i was under the impression this exercise was going to explore the difference between a placidus placement of mars in the 12th, verses a whole sign house read.. It is. But we have to do one then the other. I made some comments on some ideas, but there is more to come. This way of looking at a mystery chart is as much new territory to me as it is to anyone else so I'm being kind of liberal with what is posted. Quote Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:03 pm
24 by Vasanth Tom, Does Mars applying aspect to Sun, Mercury happens when Mercury is cazimi? Vasanth Last edited by Vasanth on Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:22 pm, edited 2 times in total. Quote Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:12 pm