Ok,

A very complex aspect combinations at play

Here is the aspect order for Mars ->

Mars first separates from a square of Venus
Mars is then applying to a trine of Jupiter; meanwhile Sun starts applying to sextile Mars
but Mercury retrogrades and comes in between; it first meets Jupiter and then Mars.
After Mercury separates from Mars; Mars continues to apply to Jupiter.
Finally Mars trines with Jupiter and at this point Mercury is in the heart of the Sun - Cazimi!!
Then when Sun catches up with Mars; Venus had already contacted Saturn

Hope I got it right.

The Moon first applies to Jupiter and then Mars and others

quick comments ->
So what I see is Mars trying to transfer Venus cause or goods to Jupiter; but Mercury comes in between uninvited; either Mercury is the trouble maker or helps to achieve the translation quicker, since it contacts both Mercury and Jupiter.
Bringing the Sun in the picture. The Sun is pursuing Mars, but Mercury helps or hinders by getting the information quickly to Sun. Mercury becomes the hero (cazimi)
I think it all starts with Venus/Leo

will try to pull in house rulerships and placements ...

Venus/Leo ruling 7th in 10th sign and 9th quadrant. This could indicate a famous (Leo) female personality the native meets abroad.

Venus in the bound of Saturn and also conjunct Saturn/Leo is in too much problems. Venus is separating from square of Mars. Maybe Mars is trying to get justice (Jupiter) for Venus' cause; but the press/Mercury (Tom's hint) spoils it.

Yes please more time to analyse the whole sign chart and drop some more hints esp if we are going off on any wrong tangents
MJ

No more jail and fear. With a ninth house emphasis we may see his ideals. In our godless age it is not the house of God but he was perhaps brought up Catholic and knew right from wrong. His acquaintances were prominent criminals. Saturn L3 debilitated in the 10th. His patrons were good to him judging from the 11th house so whole signs make a better fortune in this case

Hello Vasanth,

Vasanth wrote: A very complex aspect combinations at play (...)
Mars first separates from a square of Venus
Mars is then applying to a trine of Jupiter; meanwhile Sun starts applying to sextile Mars
but Mercury retrogrades and comes in between; it first meets Jupiter and then Mars.
After Mercury separates from Mars; Mars continues to apply to Jupiter.
Finally Mars trines with Jupiter and at this point Mercury is in the heart of the Sun - Cazimi!!
Then when Sun catches up with Mars; Venus had already contacted Saturn
(?)

I have met this kind of approach (considering the order and timing of realisation of aspects ? if I got it right) in horary but completely new to it in natal astrology, would you mind, if possible, giving a concise explanation of it, please? (even in another thread, if it is considered going off topic here)

Thanks

Iris

Hi Iris,

Quick thoughts ->

Firmicus Maternus gives lots of notes on the Moon's separation and application in his book. Clearly the Moon's aspects is important. The last aspect prior to birth is treated as early life influence and the planet to which the Moon applies the later life influence. The Moon's purpose seems to leave behind the separating planet significance or carry that planet's influence to the applying planet.

I am not aware if there are traditional aphorisms regarding other planets separation and application. Like for example - what happens when Mars separates from Venus and applies to Jupiter. But we could delineate using the planets sign and house locations/rulership and the aspects involved.

Ordinarily if we take out the Moon, we wouldn't find much dyanamics between the planets in a natal chart. But in this case the aspect patterns are too much; so close; it almost pulls everything in; it is difficult to concentrate just on Mars. We could talk just of the aspects like - Mars/Scorpio/12 sextile Mercury-Rx/Virgo/; Mars/Scorpio/12 trine Jupiter/Cancer/9 and so on. But to build the right story for the native's life we have to see the aspect dynamics here - there sequence - just like in horary chart - because they are so close; one can't ignore.

Vasanth

Thanks, Vasanth.

Returning to considering Mars, now in the first house, the first thing that authors say is that the ruler of the ASC in the I means "good".
In Bonatti's Book of Astronomy, Treatise 1-3 (Benjamin N. Dykes' translation) p.142.: "if the Lord of the 1st were in the 1st, it signifies the native's good fortune, his acquisition through himself, by his own industry and the exhaustion of his own body /at this point I thought: a wrestler! The Rock! :-D/, own study, own concerns" etc.
In Treatise 9, On Nativities, p. 1174. speaking about the 3 superior planets, "if they were (?.) in the ASC or in its angles (?.) they ake the soul (?.) capable of freedom, stern and sure of his own counsel, great and open, exalted and bringing his own thoughts into the open, but not very discreetly". Using Placidus houses, only the Sun and Mercury are in the angles, while using WSH, both Mars and Saturn (2 superior planets out of 3) are in the angles, so this point (that somehow sustains the meaning of the "ruler of the ASC in the I house") could make the difference between Placidus and WS houses (Tom will tell?. ).
According to Masha'allah (Works of Sahl and Masha'allah, Benjamin N. Dykes' translation), on p. 508., Mars in the ASC means "sorrow and fear and contention, and a horrible thing (?.), also craftiness and contrariety, and entering into a matter which does not pertain to him".
Following Zoller, the primary motivation of the native, signified by the Scorpio Ascendant, will be emotional security, and it will be sought through the strong domicile ruler Mars and its ways (courageous, zealous, daring, having initiative, ie. Mars' most positive/ly expressed/ features, although wrath and contention can never be excluded) and it will be "able to perform" and will be very "on target"; if this Mars is in the 12th house, a hidden/secret dimension will be "the theatre of expression of the primary motivation", while if it is in the I house, his own person will be the scene of realisation. This sounds very important (as a way of distinction between the two house systems), but from my experience, this "primary motivation" and its place of realistion is not something that can necessarily and be seen and understood easily from the outside, especially not from biographical data (unless the person is still alive and can be asked?.and have enough ability of introspection to understand?. and willingness to formulate it? etc.)

Some other general considerations (related to Mars but indipendent of house systems):
Masha'allah (op.cit.), on p.385., says that Mars in the bounds of Venus means problems related to women (and there is a long detailed guide describing all the possible troubles of this kind)
In Introductions to Traditional Astrology: Abu Mashar & al-Qabisi (translated and edited by Benjamin N. Dykes), on p.72. al-Qabisi describes the use of the 3 triplicity Lords of the ASC for determining the quality of the 3 main periods of life. Strong Mars being the 2nd triplicity Lord, and peregrine Venus the 1st one, it is deducible that the second/middle period of the native's life (adulthood) was much better than his childhood.

Iris

"if the Lord of the 1st were in the 1st, it signifies the native's good fortune, his acquisition through himself, by his own industry and the exhaustion of his own body /at this point I thought: a wrestler! The Rock! :-D/, own study, own concerns" etc. ..."

Yes an athlete and not a wrestler. He is primarily known as an athlete, but that is not all he is known for. Acquisition through himself or his own efforts is exactly right. In his field he could be considered something of a pioneer. But what else does it tell us about a person if that person develops his skills at the sacrifice of his body?

"if they were (?.) in the ASC or in its angles (?.) they ake the soul (?.) capable of freedom, stern and sure of his own counsel, great and open, exalted and bringing his own thoughts into the open, but not very discreetly"

Also true in fact deadly accurate. Put this together with the above.

Could he then be a body- builder? They only get really large by abusing steroids. Or a pro footballer. Their bodies must take some abuse. But what next. I think you ruled politics so acting maybe