waybread wrote:Thanks, Paul-- my confusion comes from my stash of horary primers, which seem to be saying that the intervening planet for translation/collection/prohibition has to be faster than the quesited or querent's planets.

If I read you correctly, however, if the querent (Mercury) and moon (combust and conjunct, but separating from the sun) both apply to a sextile with the quesited (Venus) but before the moon and Mercury can perfect the sextile they both perfect an opposition from an un-dignified Saturn then the matter will probably have an unsuccessful outcome. The main signifiers have to be faster, not the planet with whom they first perfect a difficult aspect. Right?

With the definitions and examples I read, it seemed that for a planet in Saturn's position to prohibit the successful outcome, it had to be faster than the main signifiers. Which is sort of impossible, when they're the moon, Mercury and Venus.

Right, I have read some confusing ways of describing this as well. Really the concept is very simple and we can put aside speed to consider it. The whole idea of prohibition is just as it says - something prohibits the aspect/perfection.

So regardless of who applies to who, the idea is that we have two significators which look to be about to perfect an aspect, but before they do, some other planet gets in the way. That's all it is really.

There are lots of names for specific ways in which aspects are denied - for example 'refranation' when a planet looks to be about to perfect an aspect but refrains from doing so by stationing and turning retrograde instead.

Prohibition is really when two planets are going to aspect but some other planet gets aspected by our significators instead and perfects an aspect before the two significators can. I'm lumping it together with 'frustration' which is when once again our two significators look to perfect an aspect but this time the slower of the two perfects with another planet.

To be nitpicky, planetary speed determines all these specific cases but really we can be broader and recognise that regardless of what specific 'technical terms' we use, the idea is that we want our two significators to perfect before they perfect with anything else, cos then that something else has an opportunity to deny the perfection, and often will.


For example, a relationship question and Venus is applying to Mars. So far so good. But before Venus can perfect with Mars, Mars (the slower of the two) perfects with some other planet (for example Saturn), and we have our example of frustration.
Or when Venus and Mars are our significators again, Venus tries to perfect with Mars but before doing so, Venus perfects with Saturn instead - prohibition.
Venus and Mars again, only this time Mars enters a new sign before perfection - evasion.
Venus and Mars, only this time just before perfecting with Mars, Venus stations and retrogrades away - refranation.

And there are others. But the idea is all the same. The two planets look set to perfect but for some reason they don't, usually because another planet gets in the way and is aspected first.

It is irrelevant what terms we use for all these things. I suspect the problem is that perhaps the horary primers you are referring to are focusing so much on getting each of these examples correct (which one is fastest, who applies to who etc. determines which of these labels we use) and less so on what the whole point of it is in the first place.

Either way, hopefully this should convey the point a bit clearer if there was confusion. Obviously we need knowledge of planetary speed so that when we look to the chart we can tell whether what we're looking at is Venus in application to Mars, or whether Mars is swifter and has already aspected Venus. If we take Becca's example, we see confusion stemming from not considering that nothing can apply to the Moon, therefore it always applies to other planets.

Waybread

Are you familiar with the saying, ?Slow and steady wins the race? from the story ?The Tortoise and the Hare?? Inspired by the moral of it, my opinion is that planetary speed is not necessarily of definitive importance in cases pertaining to Prohibition. I believe that what is of importance and what the final judgment rests upon is the reception of the planet or luminary's arrival at the central 'destination', as I spoke about earlier. Of course, a planet will be acting as this central 'destination', and so the shape of this particular planet is to be examined; the dignity, sect, any affliction, and so on.

Let's say that the quesited, Venus, is acting as the central 'destination' that the two planets, the querents, the Moon(NOT a planet) and Mercury, are 'dashing' towards - the Moon as the Hare, Mercury as the Tortoise, with a slightly different spin on this tale to follow.

Being the swifter of the two, the Moon(Hare) arrives at the desired destination before Mercury(Tortoise). The catch is, this does not automatically imply that the Moon is well received by Venus. Apart from having competed with Mercury, let's imagine that there is an additional setback once there. This setback boils down to an ill-dignified reception with Venus, from which we can conclude that Venus 'rejects' the Moon(nobody liked the Hare anyway). This means that the Moon(Hare) is unwelcomed and frowned upon(for its tactics as a result of its sign's mannerisms...or lack thereof), while Mercury is left behind in the dust. However, we might wonder what other trouble Mercury endures along the way. Perhaps big ol' bad Saturn creeps out of nowhere and exposes itself in an attempt to distract Mercury and succeeds, leaving those two there to battle it out against each other, so to speak.

Is this confusing, Paul?

In my experience 'Prohibition' is not always a negative outcome. Sometimes it is more beneficial than the 'Thing Desired' as per question...few examples

The Key is to ascertain the nature of the question and 'receptions' between Querent's, questied and Prohibiting planet.

Q: Will I (boy) marry Jane?

Prohibited.

Outcome maybe:

She will marry a better person
You will marry a better person
One of you might marry another person of not so good disposition.
She will return to her country of origin. End of Story etc etc

Q: When Will I meet Professor Rolf?

Prohibited

Outcome maybe:

You met an accident on the way..
You met Jane your old flame and both of you decided to watch 'Movies. Professor Rolf out of picture.

There is another pattern I noticed when some one is repeatedly asking a question with different wordings. The person might be a family member or a close friend... In this case prohibited planet is the most important and tells of some other diversion or interest..

In my early career of Horary, lets say Jane asked about every other boy she met...like

Will he marry me?
Will I marry him? etc etc

In those cases Prohibiting planet sometimes meant

1.You will catch a flu and forget him
2. He will fail an exam and concentrate on his studies and forget you...
3. You will be engaged to not him but the person who is a real gentleman...

So, the important outcomes in above cases were:

1. You are going to be sick
2. He is going to fail his exams
3. Your parents are planning your engagement

Answer to the question posed by the OP:

I do not consider, role of Moon as Prohibiting, unless and until she is clearly identified-as another 'Person' or a thing- by an unbiased astrologer of the horary. So, it is advisable to ask questions of serious nature to an independent astrologer.

Becca wrote: Is this confusing, Paul?

Yes.

Prohibition really does not have anything to do with sect.

It is true that when we look at these aspects we are also looking at dignity and at reception. But really prohibition is not defined by whether or not a planet is received. Of course when it comes to perfecting a matter we do need to examine receptions and these add additional colour or information or adjectives about the aspect in question - quesited receiving querent ameliorates the aspect and increases the ease toward perfection, and vice versa.

But prohibition (and frustration and so on) is about a planet interposing itself between our two significators.

I think it's best we don't confuse the matter additionally by bringing in reception and sect. Even though we, in practice, will also be looking at things like reception and dignity etc. as well. It is easier to explain and define prohibition if we separate and isolate its dependencies and just explain what we mean by that particular term alone.

StellarTiggy wrote:If the Moon has to square, conjunct, oppose, or trine any OTHER planet right before it conjoins your significator, is that prohibition? Because I saw a horary with Sag Rising (Jupiter in Cancer) and the Moon in Cancer first has to square Mars in Libra RX before it conjoins Jupiter in Cancer. If the two main sigs are not applying and the Moon's aspects are as described, is the answer effectively "no" because of prohibition, or what?

Even if the Moon was not prohibited by Mars (but of course, she is!), I wonder what matter by this perfection of the querent's own significator, Jupiter, and his co-significator, the Moon, should be brought about then?

Paul wrote:For example, a relationship question and Venus is applying to Mars. So far so good. But before Venus can perfect with Mars, Mars (the slower of the two) perfects with some other planet (for example Saturn), and we have our example of frustration.
Or when Venus and Mars are our significators again, Venus tries to perfect with Mars but before doing so, Venus perfects with Saturn instead - prohibition.

We should be aware that, if Mars AND Venus are going to perfect a conjunction or an aspect with Saturn, there was even a perfection of the matter - by collection of the light.

Thanks, everyone.

I'll get the hang of this one of these years.

This was an exam question, BTW. I think passing it was better than not passing it for the student.

I understand an opposition to an undignified retrograde Saturn by the querent's significator before it perfects a sextile to the quesited significator to be bad news. I wouldn't see the old boy as terribly helpful.

waybread wrote:The querent (Mercury) and moon were conjunct and combust, and applying to a sextile with the quesited (Venus,) but before the sextile could perfect the moon and Mercury would apply to an opposition with Saturn.

I would agree that, if you refer to your example above, this is prohibition. Provided - and this was my example - that not Venus herself also perfects a conjunction or an aspect with Saturn after those made by Mercury and the Moon. Because then Saturn would collect the light of the significators and thus the matter was perfected.

Thanks-- and no: Venus had sprinted ahead and would not form an aspect w/ Saturn.

Paul wrote:

Becca wrote: Is this confusing, Paul?

Yes.

Is it confusing? I don't think that it is. But if it is to others, how do I personally benefit as well if I were to make it anymore unconfusing than it is?

Prohibition really does not have anything to do with sect.

I think that it could. We can discuss how eslewhere or some other time, if you want.

It is true that when we look at these aspects we are also looking at dignity and at reception. But really prohibition is not defined by whether or not a planet is received. Of course when it comes to perfecting a matter we do need to examine receptions and these add additional colour or information or adjectives about the aspect in question - quesited receiving querent ameliorates the aspect and increases the ease toward perfection, and vice versa.

This is exactly what I am trying to convey - that reception and dignity are part of the process.

But prohibition (and frustration and so on) is about a planet interposing itself between our two significators.

I am aware of this. Prohibition and frustration are basically the same idea, different terminology.

I think it's best we don't confuse the matter additionally by bringing in reception and sect. Even though we, in practice, will also be looking at things like reception and dignity etc. as well. It is easier to explain and define prohibition if we separate and isolate its dependencies and just explain what we mean by that particular term alone.

And there have been quiet a few sufficient explanations and examples of this term already, I think.

hi all

I have a chart here somewhere it is about a girl asking about an opera gig in school .. L1 did not meet L10 BUT Moon did and she stood between L1 and L10. i asked Deb after her lecture in SF about it, she glanced at it and said looks like the girl will get the job. I found it to be more of a jawdropping than reality. Well, another young woman got the job. Moon was the prohibiter

shrug
CD

cosmicdolphin wrote:hi all

I have a chart here somewhere it is about a girl asking about an opera gig in school .. L1 did not meet L10 BUT Moon did and she stood between L1 and L10. i asked Deb after her lecture in SF about it, she glanced at it and said looks like the girl will get the job. I found it to be more of a jawdropping than reality. Well, another young woman got the job. Moon was the prohibiter

shrug
CD

Hello CD,

I would like to have a look at your example chart and investigate it by myself. Could you post the chart, please? Thank you!