Mark wrote:National charts is more of a big picture approach to see if a country is resonating with something like a World cup win.

Just think what a boost to national esteem winning the world Cup would be to a country? In the United Kingdom, English commentators still regularly mention their 1966 Team when the country last won the World Cup. That was almost 50 years ago! The good feel factor from such an event is exceedingly strong. The only exception might be countries like USA or Australia where football is not really that significant a part of their national sports culture. For that reason the USA chart is one of the harder countries to use this method with.

You can combine this with the chart for the final to help judge the winner. Plus you can assign angles based on sign associations from the national charts. So the two methods are not necessarily contradictory.

Hi Mark,

now I understand what you're saying..


Jo?o Ventura

Andrew Bevan wrote: Sometimes it feels like a game of poker, though, with people holding their cards tight to their chest, not wanting to be exposed in case something goes wrong...

Mark wrote:I suppose there are some people here who have reputations to lose in predicting this. Personally that is not the issue. I have absolutely nothing to lose as I am no authority on sports or sports astrology. I dont mind taking a punt and seeing what happens. I have done that many times in political astrology where I have much more of a personal investment. Its just that the national chart approach is quite time consuming. For me its just a question of TIME.

My main reason for putting it forward in that manner, Mark, is to get people to loosen up a bit. Yes, as far as astrology and astrological predictions are concerned it feels as if reputation is at stake, yet if the problem is approached in the right manner it is still more a matter of gaining experience and learning. Years back I introducing the question of radicality to the evaluation and outfall of football matches. Now we include it as a standard and I do not know of any other forum that has collected this material and experimented with football matches according to this criteria. Here I believe we may have expanded our understanding of a classical and almost forgotten term within astrology and that our experience of working with the concept in this fashion may have increased our understanding of the ancient rule and may be shown useful in other areas of atrology, too.

On page 2 Janis wrote:June 20, 13:00, Arena Pernambuco 08S 02 24, 35W 00 29.
Italy (Jupiter) - Costa Rica (Mars)
Odds 1.35 5.00 10.00

ASC 27 LI 13, MC 22 CN 00, POF 08 LE 32, Moon 10AR 33
Day and hour Venus,

The chart is radical. The Moon squares Pluto and opposes Mars, her dispositor. The Sun (Leo) is close trine to ASC. Jupiter is 2 degrees away from the degree of MC. Jupiter is in superior position to Mars.

Please excuse me not getting back to this chart earlier, but I am quite busy for the next days entertaining 2 guests from the Astrological Association of Warsaw, Poland. Looking at this chart, Venus is important as Lady of the Hour and the 1st house. She is in her own sign and inconjunct the ascendant. Off the top of my head I had an identical case at Skyscript earlier this month. I can't remember the exact match without going through oll my posts, but unless my memory fails me the favourite won, but with some difficulty. I believe the underdog scored the first goal. Can't guarantee the same will happen today, but it might be taken into consideration.
---------------------------------------

The comparison was this match on Friday 13. June:
Mexico - Cameroon, 13.00 BRT, 16.00 UTC
Odds: 2,25 3,10 3,65
Day Venus, Hour Venus - radical
My comments were that Cameroon appeared to be benefiting from the inconjunction, yet Mexico won 1-0...

All England fans are hoping for a convincing win for Italy this evening which keeps alive the British hope of qualifying for the next round.
Venus, Lady of the hour aspects the ascendant with the same inconjunct aspect. It should be monitored.

With not much to say based on this testimonies

L7 inside L1 in detriment
moon trine POF favoring L1
L1 cnj anti of POF after 5 degrees.


L7 has this testimonies:

anti of POF inside L7
moon opp L7

But these arent testimonies enough to give L7 a headway not to talk of draw comparing to the testimonies L1 has .


So using the color method Mars(Red) in Detriment in Libra(White) Libra on Ascendant matched the jersey color of Costa Rica. And with odds 5.50 that made my day

Yes, as far as astrology and astrological predictions are concerned it feels as if reputation is at stake, yet if the problem is approached in the right manner it is still more a matter of gaining experience and learning.

That is the problem that nobody is willing to put his head on the plate. I made an attempt to provide astrological details for all group games. Apart from you and John, all others refrained from any predictions before the games.

My was about to revisit publicly all charts and reconsider predictions on second thoughts shortly before the start but seeing that the folk is not willing to come out with analysis and predictions, I stayed off, yet I should for myself and practice.

Italy - Costa Rica was a little bit tricky and the radicality of the chart did not help Italy. Venus was conjunct Algol, but it was not the testimony that matters. According to the color method it was an easy one - the Moon (white - Costa Rica) dispositor of Jupiter (blue - Italy) was in superior position. But with this testimony alone, you usually get right not much more than by chance (in a long run there is a difference but it give you little edge to predict individual games on the basis of this testimony)

Italy is a Leo country. Sun being in the last degree of Gemini might not bode well for Italy, however, I am not sure that it was the decisive testimony.

I cannot recall when and where in the forum I suggested to monitor games played with the natural sign ( or opposite) or the exaltation (or fall) sign of the ruler on ASC. I recall that in South Africa in 2010 Aquarius ASC was fatal for Italy and France. Here we had Libra, fall of the Sun, rising.

The idea is that the significator (let it be the Sun) must have some dignity or at least be peregrine on ASC. With Libra or Aquarius rising you can always expect trouble for the Sun significator. The rule works if there is a big favorite (and it was the case regarding Italy).

The Sun and Mercury are mutually separating. Separation from the dispositor is always affliction (a proven rule).

If we use significators agreeably to colours - Jupiter (blue) for Italy and Moon (white) for Costa Rica , superior position of the Moon, taking into consideration the relative strength of the teams according to my practice, is not enough for taking 3 points, even a draw is problematic.

Thanks for the responses to my previous posting.

I?m happy enough to talk about techniques but rather keep it open on the Forum. jventura you express better the sentiment I was trying to put across regarding success at betting and predictions. What I?ve thought for some time and have shown this World Cup is that you can have only fair astrological predictions and still make money betting.

I could have posted that my predictions made a profit and how well I?d done, but what interests me is improving my astrology. This time I got more than half correct. During the Premiership I was averaging between 60% and 67% during different parts of the season and am looking to improve this!!

I tend to agree with Mark?s comments about Ficina considering the Moon represents the favourites. (What happened to Ficina?). I also agree with jventuras comments that the ruler of the hour shows the condition of the favourite.

I see Mark has been causing havoc discussing National Charts and even prompted Deb to appear on these pages.

If we are looking for the mood of the country to be seen in a National Chart I would assume this will be for winners. For the other 31 countries and numerous games I am of the opinion they should be just seen as football matches.

Janis, I see you have just posted and will respond separately, as you make valid points. I?m always happy to be open about my predictions and be shown wrong, in a way in spurs me on to learn more and reconsider my methods.

Italy - Costa Rica 0-1
Now I found my opening remarks on the Mexico-Cameroon match:

So this could be the first suprize of the tournement. Radicality could save the favourites, but the specifics of the chart hint the underdog - keep an eye on Cameroon.

This proved more true for Italy - Costa Rica. It is the inconjunct aspect that is the clue.

There is something about Salvador isn't there?!! Wonder what the stadium chart looks like.

Janis said

Apart from you and John, all others refrained from any predictions before the games.

Not sure whether this means I don't count because women shouldn't do football or because they shouldn't do astrology?
Or just because of the national charts (which incidentally worked fine in 2010 for identifying that France and Italy would be knocked out and that Spain would win)........

I am quite relaxed about the outcome of my predictions as I attributed 2010 to beginners luck.

This time I am trying more seriously to test the system. So far I have discovered from Spain's chart that an exact progressed New Moon is bad (even when positively aspected by Jupiter and Venus) in such as case as it means the end of a cycle ( but for more discussion I will go to mundane forum). And that you have to be in it to win it - I ignored Costa Rica to my cost - though of course this does not reflect any weakness in astrology.

Not sure whether this means I don't count because women shouldn't do football or because they shouldn't do astrology?

Sorry, no disregard meant.

It is the inconjunct aspect that is the clue.

I always include inconjunct aspect of the lord of hour into consideration and look if it is joined or not joined to a planet which can render its light to ASC. There was none to help the poor Venus. As I have argued the luminaries, the condition of POF, its dispositor and lord of hour show the strength of the favourites. Aversion of the lord of hour to the rising sign is always harmful for home favourites (neutral for home underdogs), in particular if in the 8th, the closer to partile, the worse. However, I have observed that a draw is more likely if there is a big home favourite.

I believe that inconjunct aspect even if partile (here it almost was) was not enough. It must be combined with other negative testimonies. In Mexico - Cameroon game it did not work yet the aspect was partile.
Considering that the same rules must be applied in a different fashion regarding favourites, marginal favourites and underdogs, I might argue Mexico was a marginal favourite and therefore the inconjunct aspect should have been neutral but not sure it is a valid argument. I think in Mexico - Cameroon there was a positive testimony for Mexico (the Moon's ingress in Capricorn), here we had the inconjunct aspect combined with other negative testimonies, which altogether lead to the upset.

Thanks Andrew, for having an open mind, because everything is not reducible to a single direction, as they appear will be bent on route to this forum those who run it, it's time to open your mind and see and understand Astrology with an amplitude of Technical criteria and more consistent this time of Big Changes, where not everything can be reduced to a specific technique, it is necessary to analyze different techniques to piece together a forecast.

I agree with Janis on his post concerning how others refrain from sharing their predictions backing with a theological analysis for fellow members to agree or disagree so as create more room for discussions and further suggestions to come out with a final dicision on prediction on a particular match before it gets started. I in particular is always here to learn from the broad knowledgerble astrologers here. Im no where near to make a prediction as a beginer. So i urge fellow members and seniors to try as much not to hide their predictions to themselve but rather share it up for broader scope of knowledge.