Hi
Quote:
Sunday, June 29, 2014 GAMBLING ON THE CALIPHATE
This morning, the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS, or ISIL if you must) announced it was pronouncing the reformation of the caliphate, with ISIS emir Abu Bakr al Baghdadi as caliph, and that it was renaming itself simply The Islamic State. The official announcement was released in Arabic, English, German, French and Russian.

What is your source here Michael? You dont list it. Do you have a link? Be cautious of anything coming out of the USA/Canada referring to 'morning' as they are no doubt using local time. However, if this isn't a North American newspaper link this could be very significant. END QUOTE

Here are the links.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... phate.html

http://news.intelwire.com/2014/06/gambl ... phate.html

As to being cautious read what I wrote. I am aware of times zones and possibility articles coming out of various countries may be way off the mark as to a closer more correct time to event taking place. That is why I wrote the following>
Note again about This Morning. Either way perhaps someone can find Berger mail and ask him what he means by morning, that is, Where is morning?

Quote: ME
Also reading several articles including the von Ostaeyen article they mention around Noon is when declaration or video was played.

Mark:
Yes I spotted this and it was there before he replied to me. But if you actually read what Pieter actually states on his blog carefully he is not saying the Caliphate was proclaimed at noon. It came several hours later. From his blog: END QUOTES

From you, the snide remark if you Me actually read what Pieter wrote .... is uncalled for. Again read what I wrote. Besides stating I read several articles including the von Ostaeyen article I left it open that either declaration may have been made at around Noon or was this when they began playing Video. Yes I read the blasted article about the several tapes played. That lead me to following.

I then pointed out videos with the Tank celebration with question was this on 29th. Then noted they were celebrating while the sun was still up, had not gone down. In fact look at video there is probably a good 30 or so minutes of Sun left. That could take us to a time of celebration beginning around 19.10 local time or 16.10 GMT. And how might I make such an estimate? I gave two links to find SunRise Set at Raggah and it was before a 17.00 GMT time. Sunset at one link came to 19:42 the other 19:45. Converted to GMT is 16.42, 16.45. I then wrote With Sun still shining that would knock out any 17.00 GMT chart. Obviously you did not like it that someone reminded you of what you later reminded us of, to be cautious. 17 GMT equates to 20.00 Raggah IF they are using time zone -3 hours.

Also to the around Noon statements. Both BBC and TV24 France began making statements that, today around Noon Isis began making declaration via videos. Compared to my current time zone, I took note of the time they BBC France started making these announcements puts the time a little after 11 AM London 12 PM Paris. These announcements made it somewhat confusing. But giving it more thought they both must have meant around Noon in Syria and not local UK or Paris time. 10 AM GMT London 11 AM bst thus around 1 Pm zone -3 which means BBC and TV24 actually meant around Noon for zone -3 hours in Syria. In whichever video they made a declaration could be anyone's guess. Michaelb

Michaelb wrote:

From you, the snide remark if you Me actually read what Pieter wrote .... is uncalled for.

I am sorry if my tone caused offence Michael. Lets all try and keep our egos out of this discussion. Ultimately, the bigger picture is to establish the hard facts here on behalf of the wider astrological community. Lets all focus on that.

I then pointed out videos with the Tank celebration with question was this on 29th. Then noted they were celebrating while the sun was still up, had not gone down. In fact look at video there is probably a good 30 or so minutes of Sun left. That could take us to a time of celebration beginning around 19.10 local time or 16.10 GMT. And how might I make such an estimate? I gave two links to find SunRise Set at Raggah and it was before a 17.00 GMT time. Sunset at one link came to 19:42 the other 19:45. Converted to GMT is 16.42, 16.45. I then wrote With Sun still shining that would knock out any 17.00 GMT chart. Obviously you did not like it that someone reminded you of what you later reminded us of, to be cautious. 17 GMT equates to 20.00 Raggah IF they are using time zone -3 hours.

Ok. I had assumed by tanks you were discussing the ISIS video. Are you discussing the link via the Guardian? Your approach seems somewhat speculative and relies on the footage being from Sunday. Do we know this for definite? I saw a BBC news report on Monday evening that presented this display of tanks etc as happening earlier on Monday.

Michaelb wrote:

Obviously you did not like it that someone reminded you of what you later reminded us of, to be cautious. 17 GMT equates to 20.00 Raggah IF they are using time zone -3 hours.

Lets avoid a tit for tat point scoring approach here Michael. If you think I am wrong about something thats fine. Just make your case rationally. I never claimed to be infallible. I get things wrong like everyone else. I am not fixated on being right here. But lets leave personaliities out of this. Its not helping us get this matter resolved.

Also to the around Noon statements. Both BBC and TV24 France began making statements that, today around Noon Isis began making declaration via videos. Compared to my current time zone, I took note of the time they BBC France started making these announcements puts the time a little after 11 AM London 12 PM Paris. These announcements made it somewhat confusing. But giving it more thought they both must have meant around Noon in Syria and not local UK or Paris time. 10 AM GMT London 11 AM bst thus around 1 Pm zone -3 which means BBC and TV24 actually meant around Noon for zone -3 hours in Syria. In whichever video they made a declaration could be anyone's guess.

I think the problem we have is the same one mentioned by Pieter's blog. Are they timing this from the actual announcement or simply when the first video release went out that afternoon? After all these news services are not astrologers. They dont hold the precise exactitude of timing as crucial as we do. Around noon Paris time would actually coincide pretty well with with source I already cited. So personally, I still think a time between 4-5pm GMT still looks plausible. However, if Pieter Van Ostaeyen
is simply wrong on his facts I suppose a midday local time in Syria is certainly conceivable.

Mark

Mark, I've also been trying to find an accurate time - The first tweet regarding the declaration that i could find from one of their social media sources was at 09:29, 29th June 2014 Ar-Raqqah, Syria. - 35N57, 30E01 - thanks.

Nathan wrote:

Mark, I've also been trying to find an accurate date - The first tweet regarding the declaration that I could find was 09:29, 29th June 2014 Ar-Raqqah, Syria. - 35N57, 30E01 - thanks.

Thanks Nathan,

Ahh tweets! As a technophobe I forgot all about that!

On his blog Pieter van Ostaeyen stated:

One of ISIS?s official Twitter accounts added: Coming soon by Allah?s permission: Good News for the Muslim Ummah ?This Is the Promise of Allah?

And indeed; not even two hours later they released a new audio statement by ISIS official spokesman Abu Muhammad al-?Adnani, titled ?This is the Promise of Allah?.

But this tweet timing doesn't match the timing he gives. I dont know much about Tweets. Is the timing data on Tweets like this reliable? What did this first tweet actually say?

Clearly we may need to reconsider the possibility of the announcement around noon local time. This would fit the BBC & French media sources Michael referred to. Michael do you have any links to those news reports?
I searched the internet for hours late on Sunday/early Monday and certainly found no BBC reference to noon then.

If that is correct midday prayers would have been a consideration for an Islamic group like this.

Mark

But this tweet timing doesn't match the timing he gives. I dont know much about Tweets. Is the timing data on Tweets like this reliable? What did this first tweet actually say?

I've just sent a message so hopefully he'll reply. I'll let you know.

I worked in investigative journalism for several years - social media is probably the most reliable form of data available for a situation such as this - certainly more so than the bbc. As it's instant, touch of a button stuff, getting info from people on the ground is far more reliable than getting it from the bloke who's sitting in his bedroom in Hounslow.

UPDATE

Here is the link to the first posting that i've come across announcing the ISIS Cailphate Islamic State from ISIS itself - the time is 8.05am - i think that's GMT, so what, -3 hours?

Mark 05.05am seems the most likely time - either just before or just after the morning prayer.

Nathan wrote:

Mark 05.05am seems the most likely time - either just before or just after the morning prayer.

Thanks very much Nathan.

Nathan wrote:

Here is the link to the first posting that i've come across announcing the ISIS Cailphate Islamic State from ISIS itself

Afraid your link above didn't work. Do you know the message that went out with the tweet?

Its an interesting sign of the times that a state can now be declared by tweet! I must say I always considered tweeting a largely frivolous form of social media before now but maybe I am just showing my dinosaur credentials.

I suppose the creation of new states needs to move with the times. The People's Republic of China was declared by a radio broadcast by Mao in 1949 so I guess tweets and online statements are the modern equivalent.

These Muslims of ISIS are quite a paradox with a hybrid of medieval theology and 21st century technology.

Getting back to the chart for the Caliphate assuming the tweet does explicitly make a clear declaration that could be the basis of a chart. Although world attention seems to have only taken this seriously after the release of that online video by ISIS declaring the Caliphate.

So we are presumably looking at a different times for the transmission of the online video and the tweet.

What do others think?

Mark

mark,

i have a twitter account, but don't actively use it. my immediate thought verifies nathan's commentary. this is probably the best means of getting the actual time and yes, twitter is very much in vogue for this type of thing.. i am resistant to this as well, but did immediately think i could probably do better utilizing this approach for finding up to the minute accuracy of news releases and information.. unfortunately i have little appetite for twitter!

james

Mark wrote: These Muslims of ISIS are quite a paradox with a hybrid of medieval theology and 21st century technology.

The leaders of the Islamic State, as they prefer to be called now, have a reputation for being 'social media savvy'. That the founding of the state should be announced by a Tweet seems in keeping with this reputation. Perhaps we should expect some sign of this in the chart as validation of it. Perhaps a lot of stuff - or main significators - in air...?

Perhaps we should expect some sign of this in the chart as validation of it. Perhaps a lot of stuff - or main significators - in air...?

I have two different times 05.05am and 06.20am - both from social media sources on 29.6.2014 Ar-Raqqah, Syria

At first glance, the 05.05 chart seems to fit quite nicely with what i know about this organisation.

i agree with nathan that the 505am chart (18 cancer rising is what i get via ar raqqah syria eet - 2) looks like a pretty good fit, as opposed to the 620am chart.. ascendant on this chart is at the sun/moon midpoint which is an indication of greater public exposure for the time..

not that this has much to do with religion, i would be wondering when the call to prayer was and whether 5:05am was before or after. can anyone find that out?