Mark wrote:

I will leave you guys to it. I am clearly wasting my time here.

Mark, you asked for sidereal input on the sign rulership scheme. I replied by asking if you had considered Naomi Bennett's comments on the average mean distance of planets from the earth. You haven't yet replied. This discussion is apart from other on-going discussions on this thread, and can be isolated from those discussions. I am interested in comments on this particular view of planet-earth relationships as I had never heard of it before.

Therese

Konrad, are any of these charts suitable for discussion? I asked for charts with the Sun and Moon conjunct the ascendant (orb 7 degrees) and Jupiter conjunct the M.C. Degrees are rounded off in this post.

#1 Asc 17 Tau; Moon 21 Tau; Sun 17 Tau: M.C 22 Cap; Jupiter 19 Cap

#2 Asc 14 Lib; Moon 19 Lib; Sun 12 Lib; M.C. 24 Can; Jupiter 1 Leo

#3 Asc 26 Sco; Moon 29 Sco; Sun 24 Sco; M.C. 3.5 Leo; Jupiter 30 Can

#4 Asc 1 Psc; Moon 4.4 Psc; Sun 28 Aqu; M.C. 4 Sag; Jupiter 4 Sag

These four charts were the only ones that came up with the search criteria. I can post all of these charts if you like.

Yeah, post them all and we'll see what comes up. I find it hard to visualise them right now. Do they all have decent biographies?

Konrad wrote:

Yeah, post them all and we'll see what comes up. I find it hard to visualise them right now. Do they all have decent biographies?

One is noted only as being a homosexual. Should I eliminate that one? The other three have enough biographical data to work with.

Of course if I post the charts from Solar Fire, the names will be with the charts. Would you rather have blind charts? I might somehow manage that with screen capture and then erase the names and birth data.

Therese Hamilton wrote:Konrad wrote:

Yeah, post them all and we'll see what comes up. I find it hard to visualise them right now. Do they all have decent biographies?

One is noted only as being a homosexual. Should I eliminate that one? The other three have enough biographical data to work with.

Of course if I post the charts from Solar Fire, the names will be with the charts. Would you rather have blind charts? I might somehow manage that with screen capture and then erase the names and birth data.

I wouldn't think homosexuality would be relevant to eminence, so just post them all but that one. As for them being blind, no I'm not a fan of those. We don't work blind with clients. From what I can tell, only chart 1 fits Victoria's chart, but just post them anyway and we can see what we get for them.

I have been thinking, I gather you are trying to prove or disprove my statement that Victoria's chart is "royal" due to the sect light having two in-sect spearbearers who are both powerful, but I don't think you are going to be able to do that via yoga-like X and Y here means Z. However, Vicotria is a fantastic example to demonstarte this technique with. She had nine children and we have AA birth data for them all. One of them went on to the throne after she died, while others gained duchies or married into other families. For this reason, her and her issues' lives are great to show that the spearbearing of the sect light is always to be taken relative to the family beginnings of the native. I will go through each of the nine children's eminence significations, and we will see that, even with a relatively unremarkable chart, the sons of kings and queens can still have eminent lives when compared to the typical working class person who exists today.

Just to satisfy an earlier request, I will state I am using the standard eminence conditions found in Hellenistic and later Medieval texts. First I look to see whether the sect light is in a good place from the ASC, and also see if it is being bodyguarded by powerful planets. For this, I use Antiochus via Porphyry and Rhetorius. There are three types of spearbearing, and for general eminence I use #2 and #3. I will quote them here beginning with type #2:

We call another kind of Doryphory that of "the casting of rays." For example, if a light is angular in the ASC and posited in the domicile of another [star] [and] a star of its sect casts a ray, to the Sun in its preceding degree or to the Moon in its following degree, throwing the ray towards that one which moves according to an equal-sided line. And all the Doryphory by trine are stronger than those by square or opposition or sextile. Introduction to Tetrabibilos, Holden trans., p21

?casting a ray? is defined on page 18 of the same text, and the example given is that a star in Cancer casts a ray back to one in Aries. So in our example here, the Sun in Aries would be bodyguarded by Jupiter in Cancer, provided that Jupiter had traversed less degrees in Cancer than the Sun in Aries. This fulfils the ?...casts a ray to the Sun in its preceding degree...? criteria. I'd just like to note that I will accept the sect light and the bodyguarding planet in any sign from the ASC, but this is descriptive of the amount of eminence the person has. Same goes with out-of-sect planets.

The third kind of spearbearing is as follows:

There is also a third kind of Doryphory. If there is a star posited in the ASC or the MC by day in a diurnal nativity and by nght in a nocturnal one, the stars that precede of follow it will be its Doryphories according to the following scheme. The Sun will be Doryphoried by those stars that precede it, and the Moon by those that follow within 7 degrees. Introduction to Tetrabibilos, Holden trans., p22

Porphyry doesn't mention the distance for the Sun, but I am willing to entertain up to the trine. Just to show my idea of out-of-sect spearbearers isn't completely unattested to, Porphyry goes on to say:

The Doryphories become out-of-sect whenever the diurnal stars are Doryphories to the nocturnal ones, or the nocturnal ones to the diurnal ones; but nevertheless, if the Doryphory is made by the benefics, not even in this case will the natives be undistinguished. Introduction to Tetrabibilos, Holden trans., p22

It is worth noting that in Valens, if the native is otherwise of low eminence, we are advised to consider the position of Fortune and its lord as the native can still then make the best of an otherwise ?bad? situation.

The charts are next.

I will delineate the children in chronological order beginning with Frederica who married the Crown Prince of Prussia, and was eventually declared Empress of Germany though her husband died only three months later. Her chart:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Fre ... of_Germany

Ok, we have the Sun in his joy in the 9th conjoined his cazimi lord, Jupiter. The Sun is bodyguarded by Mars in detriment in the 7th house. For me, this is apt for this native. The planet providing for her eminence is in the 7th sign of marriage and a sign associated with living abroad. She married a foreign prince and lived abroad where she was always known as Die Engl?nderin (the Englishwoman). The state of Mars is also telling, with him in detriment, and as ASC lord, it is a testimony of living abroad. One last thing is that a planet in detriment will evenutally ruin its significations or they will fade away; as was stated, her husband died 3 months after gaining the throne. Telling here, is the fact that Mars is in mutual reception with Venus (Venus in Mars' exaltation, Mars in Venus' sign), so she did not lose her position completely as would be expected from a malefic out-of-sect, in detriment and acting as spearbearer. Venus was there to protect her in this context.

Next the child who actually succeeded Victoria, Edward VII:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Edw ... of_England

This guy has the best chart for eminence from all the siblings, as you would expect for the one who would eventually gain the throne. He has the Sun in the 11th sign, but approaching the MC. He has Saturn and Mars, both dignified (domicile and exaltation respectively) casting a ray by sextile into the degrees preceding him while Venus bodyguards with type #3. In her own sign, she signified him having the title ?Peacemaker? while having been the longest-waiting heir apparent, he was seen as a popular socialite famous for being leisurely. When he actually became king, he reformed and modernised the military, reinstated traditional ceremonies as part of public life and was skilled in diplomacy. Notable too is that both the lord of the 4th, Mars, and the natural ruler of one's lineage, Saturn, are bodyguarding as this is what we would expect for one who was in effect given his position by the facts of his birth. Also too, is that the Moon, who is out-of-sect and in fall (I count the Moon exalted in Pisces with the Sun as this is where she would appear if we place the Sun on the Equinox) is bodyguarding the Sun as it was his mother's long reign that meant he never gained the throne until he was over 60; before that he was shunned from political power.

The third child, Alice:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Ali ... ess_(1843)

This lady again married a German prince, but this was not a happy thing for her as her new family's fortunes began to diminish after marriage, and when her husband eventually inherited his position as duke, she died a year later. Her chart is fairly unremarkable from an eminence point of view. The Moon is in the 12th sign, with its lord Jupiter. It is bodyguarded by Venus in the ASC and in detriment. Again, with Venus' natural significations and her rulership of the DSC, marriage gave this woman some standing. Again though, Venus is in detriment, and her lord, Mars, is in the 9th sign, so an eventual degradation of this was to be expected.

The fourth child, Alfred:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Alf ... nce_(1844)

Alfred again has a fairly unremarkable chart. The Sun is in the 12th sign, albeit his own, with Saturn spearbearing from the opposition, but again in his own sign. Notable is that Alfred inherited his duchy from his paternal uncle; Saturn's natural significations in the 6th sign which is the 3rd from the 4th sign.

The fifth child, Helena:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hel ... of_England

Again this lady married into a foreign duchy, and again, she has Venus and the 7th house prominent as Venus is acting as bodyguard for the Sun. Unlike the others, her marriage lasted and this is due to Venus being received by a culminating Mars. However, Mars is in fall and she had a few scandals attached to her reputation. Firstly, she became ?romantically attached? to a house servant which is apt for Mars in fall, but also her eventual marriage was to a Prince of Schleswig and Holstein, a place which was being fought over by Denmark and Prussia.

The sixth child, Louise:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Lou ... ess_(1848)

Again Venus is spearbearing and, again, marriage plays a role here with her marrying a duke. With Venus exalted, she was also a known artist, and even attended art school, but her royal birth meant that she could not take on the role as a professional.

The seventh child, Arthur:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Art ... of_England

This native was in the military from a young age, eventually became a field marshall and spent much of his life abroad. Here you have ASC lord, the Moon, in the 7th spearbearing for the Sun and in mutual reception with Mars. A life abroad serving in the military seems apt. According to my program here, Saturn was not visible at the natives birth, so cannot act as spearbearer.

The eighth child, Leopold:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Leo ... of_England

This native was of fairly low eminence even compared to the females of his siblings. He was granted a peerage and was Grand Master of Freemasonry before dying relatively young. His Sun is in the 9th bodyguarded only by Jupiter in fall in the 6th sign.

The ninth child, Beatrice:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Bea ... of_England

This native has a chart of low eminence with the Sun receding from the angle and not having any spearbearers. She spent much of her time as her mother's unofficial secretary. She did marry a prince, but she married the son of a morganatic marriage, so he had no titles or claim to his ancestral titles. Fitting for someone without the Venus/7th sign spearbearer the other female siblings had.

Konrad wrote:

I have been thinking, I gather you are trying to prove or disprove my statement that Victoria's chart is "royal" due to the sect light having two in-sect spearbearers who are both powerful

No, I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything. I only wanted to see what you'd do with charts with Sun and Moon near the ascendant and Jupiter at the M.C. I don't plan on analyzing the charts on Skyscript myself as it would be like Martin said: individual monologues. I use the navamsa chart to help distinguish one birth chart from another.

I'll post the charts as soon as possible. It's very hot here today, and some work has to be finished first.

Well, if I'm just going to be delineating charts myself, don't bother posting them. I've got a blog to talk to myself on.

Konrad wrote:The state of Mars is also telling, with him in detriment, and as ASC lord, it is a testimony of living abroad.

konrad, what chart is this in reference to? you have this under the first chart in your 149pm post. thanks.

James,

the chart above it, the first one listed belonging to Frederica. If you're confused about the rulership scheme, see the posts earlier in this thread.