Konrad wrote:

Well, if I'm just going to be delineating charts myself, don't bother posting them. I've got a blog to talk to myself on.

All right, Konrad, I'll try to play off what you write if you'd like feedback. I also want to study the nine charts you posted, but I have to calculate them in Solar Fire with the navamsas first.

This is a slow day. It's hotter here than it has been in years, and we have no air conditioning. It's not supposed to be this hot in the mountains. I'll take a break from other work, and post the three charts from ADB with the biographies.

The summaries you gave before posting the nine charts are very clear and helpful for those new to Hellenistic principles.

Yeah, I think you're right in that I have to explain myself a bit more, I'm just a lazy writer. I'm not looking for feedback on what I came up with, but for other people to delineate the charts their way, so maybe we can learn something from another approach. Some see individual monologues, but I would rather see a sharing of ideas, and I am aware that I may be dismissive of other's ideas, so I would like to broaden my own approach a bit.

Mensan 14587 American gifted child, an IQ test at age eight found him to have an intelligence quotient of 133. According to the Mensa Weschler scale for kids, a child must test 130 or higher to be in the top 2% of intelligent people. AA 14587


Helfgott, Gillian Australian astrologer practicing in Sydney. She met pianist David Helfgott after his nervous breakdown and helped him make his gradual way back to the concert stage. They met 11/30/1983, 01:15 PM, Perth, and the next day he asked her to marry him. By March 1984 she returned to Perth and they started living together in mid-April. They married on 8/26/1984, Perth. A 36385

Simpson, Don American film producer who, with his partner Jerry Bruckheimer, was responsible for blockbusters like "Flashdance," 1983 and "Top Gun," 1986. Born in Seattle, Washington, Simpson grew up in Anchorage, Alaska. After moving to San Francisco, he worked at the Jack Woodell Agency as an account executive, and in 1971, he became a marketing executive for Warner Brothers. His career really took off, however, when he met Jerry Bruckheimer who quickly became a close friend.

They began their successful partnership with "American Gigolo," 1979, and went on to produce films that were instrumental in defining the pop culture of the 1980s. In 1985 and 1988, the National Association of Theater Owners named the duo "producers of the year." Simpson was the recipient of ten Academy Award nominations, three Golden Globe Awards and two People?s Choice Best Picture Awards. In 1991, Simpson left Paramount and joined Walt Disney Studios.

Always recognized as having a keen eye for talent, he was equally as well known for being one of Hollywood?s poster boys for bad behavior. While Bruckheimer would wield an olive branch during business meetings, Simpson was more apt to bully his way to success. He reportedly suffered from a lack of self-esteem and had an almost pathological need to be "the man." Always the life of the party, he was legendary for the lavish gatherings he hosted. His tendency toward substance abuse further escalated in 1990 and began to interfere with his professional life.

In 1995, he was allegedly undergoing drug rehabilitation under the care of his physician, and longtime friend, Stephen Ammerman. On 8/14/1995, the doctor was found in Simpson?s pool house, dead of a drug overdose. Afterward Simpson was deeply depressed and increasingly was unable to help his partner with their production duties. In December 1995, Bruckheimer made a public announcement stating that while they were still good friends, they were dissolving their professional partnership. Simpson died of a heart attack on 1/19/1996, Los Angeles, CA. A 41449

Graphics question: What is the best graphics format (smallest, producing the clearest illustration) to use on message boards? I've been using jpeg, but the file size is large, and the charts are a little blurry on the screen.

My initial Reaction to Konrad's analysis of the charts of royals:

Konrad, your grasp of Hellenistic concepts in quite good, as you know. However, no matter how inspired you feel your rulership system is, in my opinion (and intuitively) it is confusing and unnecessary when used to explain traits and life patterns in horoscopes. However, I can still discuss individual traits in charts by using standard symbolism along side your delineation, and suggest why an alternate ruling system can be problematic.

As astrologers we already know that various types of analysis can result in a more or less standard astrological picture of a chart if the astrologers are skilled in delineation. As long as Hellenistic principles are used, I have no problem with them, though I might use different orbs, etc. in individual cases.

In another post I'll begin with your commentary on the chart of Edward VII. As time allows. The extreme heat today is causing me headaches and dizziness.

Konrad wrote:

I'm not looking for feedback on what I came up with, but for other people to delineate the charts their way, so maybe we can learn something from another approach. Some see individual monologues, but I would rather see a sharing of ideas, and I am aware that I may be dismissive of other's ideas, so I would like to broaden my own approach a bit.

O.K., This is great, much better than picking apart someone else's analysis which doesn't really benefit anyone. I very much like the concept of sharing ideas. Let us go onward and upward!

Therese Hamilton wrote:My initial Reaction to Konrad's analysis of the charts of royals:

Konrad, your grasp of Hellenistic concepts in quite good, as you know. However, no matter how inspired you feel your rulership system is, in my opinion (and intuitively) it is confusing and unnecessary when used to explain traits and life patterns in horoscopes. However, I can still discuss individual traits in charts by using standard symbolism along side your delineation, and suggest why an alternate ruling system can be problematic.

As astrologers we already know that various types of analysis can result in a more or less standard astrological picture of a chart if the astrologers are skilled in delineation. As long as Hellenistic principles are used, I have no problem with them, though I might use different orbs, etc. in individual cases.

In another post I'll begin with your commentary on the chart of Edward VII. As time allows. The extreme heat today is causing me headaches and dizziness.

Well, I'd say your opinion and intuition are the same thing. I'm not sure what your problem is though since I am not asking you, or anyone else, to follow me. I was just demonstrating some of the reasons why I am using this, and it turned out a lot of Victoria's children's charts describe their situations very well in a Sidereal measurement with alternative rulerships. Using the same measurement but "standard" rulerships, not so much.

However, I can still discuss individual traits in charts by using standard symbolism along side your delineation, and suggest why an alternate ruling system can be problematic.

So basically, you are going to pick apart my post? If that's what you want, then that's what you want, but it was something you said you wanted to avoid.

Notes on Edward VIII

Konrad wrote:

This guy has the best chart for eminence from all the siblings, as you would expect for the one who would eventually gain the throne. He has the Sun in the 11th sign, but approaching the MC.

I would add that the Sun is the 9th lord, the house that used to be associated with kingship and royalty (before they were moved to the 10th). So for a man who gained the throne, the 9th lord would have to be well placed. (All my Hellenistic house notes are from Robert Schmidt's Phasewatch lessons.)

The Sun is also with the lot of fortune, and conjunct Beta Libra and four other stars in the 25th degree of Libra. I've seen that degree show up often in charts of noted individuals. It would seem that the Sun in its fall may have contributed greatly to the delay in Edward becoming king.

I would first note that the ascendant lord, Jupiter rises just above the ascendant, which would indicate a fortunate birth and survival of the child.

He has Saturn and Mars, both dignified (domicile and exaltation respectively) casting a ray by sextile into the degrees preceding him while Venus bodyguards with type #3.

(This is a technique I don't use.)

In her own sign, she signified him having the title "Peacemaker"

This can also be shown by the Sun and Lot of Fortune in Libra (diplomatic affairs) as well as the Sun in Venus ruled Taurus on the navamsa ascendant, and Venus opposing the Moon in the navamsa chart. Navamsa Venus also falls on the natal Moon and nonagesimal (zenith) point.

This is where I would look for Venus activities and characteristics. Although it doesn?t appear from the natal chart that there is a strong Venus influence (except the Libra Sun), Venus is highlighted in the navamsa and through her position becomes angular in the natal chart.

Venus is rather strange in the triplicity sytem because she?s a lord of the triplicity in which she finds her fall. I?ve found through experience that an important key to the chart is the Sun?s dispositor. So we find navamsa Venus two degrees from the highest point in the natal chart, the NG or zenith point with the natal Moon.

while having been the longest-waiting heir apparent...

...Saturn conjunct ascendant lord Jupiter...angular in the first house. Also Saturn square the Moon in 10th.

...he was seen as a popular socialite famous for being leisurely.

This is a lunar function. If the chart is set up with equal cusps, the Moon is just at the NG, square the ascendant. Although this is a diurnal birth, the Moon is comfortable in Virgo its own triplicity whose lords are Venus and the Moon. In the sidereal zodiac this triplicity is light, pleasant, and can be frivolous due to the rulership of these two planets. This triplicity is the most social and gregarious of the four trigons, and enjoys conversation and the company of friends.

When he actually became king, he reformed and modernised the military, reinstated traditional ceremonies as part of public life and was skilled in diplomacy.

Traditional ceremonies would be Jupiter. Jupiter is also the planet that can relate easily to others. Venus is in sextile aspect to Jupiter. Thus because Jupiter is the lord of the ascendant, Venus transfers her traits to Jupiter, and they become part of the psychological makeup.

As for the delayed ascendancy to the throne, this would be shown by Saturn?s full aspect (dexter square in Jyotish) to the 10th house Moon. Edward did not become king until after the start of Saturn?s dasa, Saturn in Ketu?s mansion, Ketu being in the 8th, death of the mother.

Notable too is that both the lord of the 4th, Mars, and the natural ruler of one's lineage, Saturn, are bodyguarding as this is what we would expect for one who was in effect given his position by the facts of his birth.

This would also be shown by 4th lord Jupiter just above the ascendant.

Also too, is that the Moon, who is out-of-sect and in fall...

This is a very different view of the Moon than a Moon that is in its own triplicity and having the highest elevation in the chart, thus very prominent and a key to life in general.

So I?m mainly using the nature of planets, sometimes as house lords, and aspects. If I were doing a reading for this person, then I?d go into greater detail such as spear bearing. But at this time I?m not sure of the orbs to be used with that technique or a few others.

It's obvious that I mainly use techniques from Jyotish with a few Hellenistic concepts thrown in such as triplicity lords. My technique mostly involves the flow of energy between planets within the chart and how those planets relate to the ascendant and other houses. It?s obvious in many ways that this is a fortunate chart due to the position of ascendant lord Jupiter and 9th lord Sun. I'm seeing also that I'm fairly rusty on Hellenistic techniques!

Konrad wrote:

So basically, you are going to pick apart my post? If that's what you want, then that's what you want, but it was something you said you wanted to avoid.

No, that is a complete misunderstanding! It seems lately that Skyscript members are too quick to take offense. I'm in favor of just describing the way we delineate charts, and then let everyone make up their own minds on which techniques "speak" to them. Also each system of techniques is a kind of lesson in chart delineation.

Well, I'd say your opinion and intuition are the same thing.

Opinion is more a function of the mind, something we decide upon using logic, whereas intuition (whether true or only imagination) is a feeling that seems right to the heart. A sort of peace settles in.

Konrad,

If the Tropical domiciles works better for you than the Sidereal domiciles, couldn't it be because the Tropical signs work better to begin with? I'm not sure how you would like to peel off one from the other, anyway. Just a thought...

Therese,

I seriously doubt that it's possible to refute Konrad's delineation by demonstrating an alternative one. This is because our astrological symbols can be manifested in so many different manners, and in turn, any given native's traits can potentially be seen as expressive of several different astrological elements. If we are honest, we have to admit that we are looking at a chart as some kind of Cosmic Rohrschach test... we see the symbols, start associating and spinning a story around them...

We should keep in mind that when looking at a chart we are dealing with archetypes. Jung said that they have no particular form as such but take many different forms in manifestation. I guess we could say that they are the sum of all the forms they can potentially assume, but I'm just thinking aloud now...

In order to see more than only ourselves reflected in the archetypal symbols of a chart, we indeed need to use our intuition. We need to tune our antennas into those planes where the archetypes abide - this is what is called DIVINATION! And this is what is making a sacred science out of astrology (it doesn't depend on its being taught in temples or universities, but that's quite another story).

Michael wrote:

I seriously doubt that it's possible to refute Konrad's delineation by demonstrating an alternative one.

I don't plan to refute Konrad's delineation. I think he's a master at using Hellenistic techniques, which I certainly am not. I do question Konrad's rulership system, but I find it so confusing that I'd have no idea how to refute it. The normal sidereal rulers seem to accurately describe the chart as far as I can see.