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25 by Roger030
Being born in the Netherlands, I think that the 1581-chart works.
To me, sun in leo in 12 seem to fit, the Dutch people just don't like people being too unique/showing too much personality. If you ever visit holland, just see how dimmed the (sun-)light here is.
To me, Netherlands has a typical saturn in aqu/7 culture, the Dutch say, 'Act normal, then you're crazy enough', which make them seem very passionless and cool indifference.

With saturn in aqu/7 culture, you also have merc in leo/1, dutch are known to be blunt and errrrrrr.... direct? They have a real superficial talking culture. They like openness on a very superficial level, a lot of trivial talk, they enjoy communication without a clear purpose.

The english phrase, 'talking like a dutch uncle' also sounds very saturnine, correcting the people who in any way don't look and behave the same as others.

Strangely enough, all Dutch astrologers I know use the 1815-chart, the chart after the napoleon occupation. Unlike our neigbouring countries Germany and Belgum, hasn't had any revolutions since the 16th century (only the Belgium revolution).

Germany, 18 jan 1871, that capricorn-saturn clearly dominates the chart and saturnal they still are in every sense.

4 july 1776 to me is the birth of the USA - when that glorified piece of paper was signed, (there's no need to make new charts for the later added signatures). It's the chart of the 'american people' as opposed to their government that is.

(Wonder if ever such a chart for europe can emerge with all it's different cultures and languages.)

People who have great affinity with UK-chart(1801):

Bridget Fonda (usa-born but played in several british movies) has great affinity with UK-chart(1801)
Mars and Saturn angular on the same degree with the UK-positions and BF's prominent Jupiter on the UK North Node (always true nodes) degree and amazing lots of other affinity.

Neil Tennant (pet shop boys singer)
The moon's nodes angular on the same degree with the UK-positions.
NT's prominent jupiter on the same degree opposite the UK-sun.
NT's pluto on the same degree with UK's sun ruler, saturn and
the rest of it.

Andrew Motion (british poet)
(I don't have the data before me)

26 by damon
Roger030 wrote:Being born in the Netherlands, I think that the 1581-chart works.
To me, sun in leo in 12 seem to fit, the Dutch people just don't like people being too unique/showing too much personality. If you ever visit holland, just see how dimmed the (sun-)light here is.
To me, Netherlands has a typical saturn in aqu/7 culture, the Dutch say, 'Act normal, then you're crazy enough', which make them seem very passionless and cool indifference.

With saturn in aqu/7 culture, you also have merc in leo/1, dutch are known to be blunt and errrrrrr.... direct? They have a real superficial talking culture. They like openness on a very superficial level, a lot of trivial talk, they enjoy communication without a clear purpose.

The english phrase, 'talking like a dutch uncle' also sounds very saturnine, correcting the people who in any way don't look and behave the same as others.

Strangely enough, all Dutch astrologers I know use the 1815-chart, the chart after the napoleon occupation. Unlike our neigbouring countries Germany and Belgum, hasn't had any revolutions since the 16th century (only the Belgium revolution).

Germany, 18 jan 1871, that capricorn-saturn clearly dominates the chart and saturnal they still are in every sense.

4 july 1776 to me is the birth of the USA - when that glorified piece of paper was signed, (there's no need to make new charts for the later added signatures). It's the chart of the 'american people' as opposed to their government that is.

(Wonder if ever such a chart for europe can emerge with all it's different cultures and languages.)

People who have great affinity with UK-chart(1801):

Bridget Fonda (usa-born but played in several british movies) has great affinity with UK-chart(1801)
Mars and Saturn angular on the same degree with the UK-positions and BF's prominent Jupiter on the UK North Node (always true nodes) degree and amazing lots of other affinity.

Neil Tennant (pet shop boys singer)
The moon's nodes angular on the same degree with the UK-positions.
NT's prominent jupiter on the same degree opposite the UK-sun.
NT's pluto on the same degree with UK's sun ruler, saturn and
the rest of it.

Andrew Motion (british poet)
(I don't have the data before me)
Interesting post yours.
However,according to sociologists Marieke de Moiij and Geert Hofstede ,Holland is a feminine country, they dont like people who stand out and always try to level evryone.But so are Scandinavian countries with their Jante law. Yet I dont think they all have the Sun in 12th house. Maybe Andrew can show us the Norwegian and Swedish charts.
I just checked.Bridget Fonda doesnt have Mars/Saturn angular

http://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/Bridget_Fonda

28 by Mark
Hi Roger,

Welcome to Skyscript and the mundane forum!

Thanks for your mundane astrology comments. As you are new I just wanted to explain that the links you have given to celebrities with mundane charts is the kind of tangent we try to avoid here. Nativities are ok here if they are directly relevant to the political or social events occurring in a mundane chart. However, the natal configurations of celebrities like Bridget Fonda have no relevance here. :shock:

regards

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

29 by Mark
Damon wrote:
I agree Mark.England has been a slave of Scotland and Wales for centuries.They should consider independence from those two.
Cheeky Monkey. :)

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

30 by Roger030
Damon,

I have read about Hofstede's terms once, but i don't think you can translate them easily in astrological terms. For example, the dutch are both UNmartian and UNvenusian (not likely to give compliments and suspicious of receiving them+they are not focused on style + women do not handle their femininity here quite obvious in comparison even to Belgiums/Germans). The tight sun/venus conjunction in 12 makes a lot of sense to me. Dutch are also known to be perceived rude and bad in customer service because in their perception everyone must be equal.
Being nice is not required here, being basic is.

Not liking people to stand is not just sun in 12, but also saturn in aquarius (on the angles to me), opposite aquarius is after all: LEO.'

31 by damon
Roger030 wrote:Damon, I have read about Hofstede's terms once, but i don't think you can translate them easily in astrological terms. For example, the dutch are both UNmartian and UNvenusian (not likely to give compliments and suspicious of receiving them+they are not focused on style + women do not handle their femininity here quite obvious in comparison even to Belgiums/Germans). The tight sun/venus conjunction in 12 makes a lot of sense to me. Dutch are also known to be perceived rude and bad in customer service because in their perception everyone must be equal. Being nice is not required here, being basic is. Not liking people to stand is not just sun in 12, but also saturn in aquarius (on the angles to me), opposite aquarius is after all: LEO.'
Interesting that you mention him. I was rading a book by one of his colleagues ,the Bulgarian Minkov.
He said that in highly individualistic nations like the USA, people are suspicious of the notion of shared culture and may even hate the idea of having many traits in common with a large percentage of their countrymen.
Americans constantly told him that in the US nobody is typical and everyone is different and unique.Thats how they like to see themselves.

Little do they know how similar they look when they come to Europe.
In eastran europe they are perceived to be clean,casually dressed people who smile a lot,drink a lot of cold drinks, patriotic,optimistic,happy,religious,punctual,generous,sociable and excessively polite. None of these traits are typical of eastern europeans,which explains why they stand out.
It is hard to find a single American who possesses all these traits,but very easy to come across many who have most of them.
Sometimes this makes it hard to tell what comes from our chart anbd what is cultural

32 by Roger030
About the dutch: myself, I have venus in 1, so i'm pretty aware of that venus energy and its absence in holland. Dutch are very mental/rational people, fits mercury in 1 + moon(node-ruler) in mercury-ruled gemini. I remember reading a british visitor in Holland in an earlier century concluded that partying here is a sin(venus in 12), what's in 12 is in some way forbidden, in denial, rejected and difficult to get to.
Dutch have what i regard 'false modesty' (sun in leo in 12), hidden personalities but big pride underneath so they can't understand that (for example) Belgiums regard them arrogant (Belgium(1830) has both sun and venus in fall,by the way).

About the saturn in aquarius in 7 'act normal than you are crazy enough', i found this quite accurate:
http://stuffdutchpeoplelike.com/2010/11 ... e-normaal/

I have 1/8 German roots in my family and can see the cultural differences and mindset between the Germans and the Dutch. Germans are more serious and working more efficiently and a no-nonsense mentality, Dutch are more light-hearted and shallow, like to talk a lot about anything. Most powerful in the German Empire chart (18jan1871) to me is the mars-saturn square angular on the nodes in mutual reception by exaltation,) saturn (in dignity) holding the key over mars (in detriment).

Funny that you mention Americans. I dated 2 american women and found it quite revealing, they are much more open about anything than dutch and to the point, and when i 'dug deeper' i found a upright sentimentality and loyalty. I see clearly the contrast: dutch loathe overdramatizing people while americans don't need modest people, 'if-you're-handsome/beautiful/talented-you-have-to-be-rich'. The americans' shared culture is their wanting to be unique, they are all in some way very self-absorbed. The western parts are of course inhabited by the people from the earlier 'civilized' eastern parts. Mars in 7 fits so well in the sibley chart, big difficulty with diplomacy. (The general observations to describe the usa as a gemini-rising nation is mainly because of that gemini-mars on the angles (+ an 'empty' sag/1 house))

33 by Liana
Hello Thomas, Mark & all in this thread!

I will limit my opinion to the chart of Modern Greece, of high interest to me as I am Greek myself too (not to mention the need to locate a 'proper' chart, due to the more general-"fiscal" situations this country has been facing).

I certainly agree with Thomas's explanation on ruling-out the 1930 chart, used by so many, wrongly in my opinion.
Nevertheless, people abroad don't need to know what happens in any foreign, to them, country.
This, therefore, is the duty & responsibility of us who live here & have a better understanding of the things (facts) that have been going around.
With this in mind, I add my opinion & understanding:

The "birth" of Modern Greece is definitely placed on the
Declaration of Independence, January 1, 1822 (Jan.13, 1822 by the present calendar).
The above, besides being common sense, I have reconfirmed with historians, irrelevant to astrology, who invariably give this date when being asked "When does the birth of Modern Greece take place?"
The time is an issue on which even though present data doesn't exist per se, the data that does exist facilitates the astrologer with the rectification!
It is certainly in the morning, & no earlier than 10 am.
I do not necessarily agree with the chart that Thomas speculates to be the correct one (of 10 am), but this I will have to back up with sound reasoning, which will be the result of my rectification work - which is not completed yet..

For now, this is what I'd like to add here in this wonderful thread.
Enjoy your day!!
Liana
Both Heart & Mind are like parachutes.
In order to function, they need to be open!

34 by Mark
Liana wrote:
The "birth" of Modern Greece is definitely placed on the
Declaration of Independence, January 1, 1822 (Jan.13, 1822 by the present calendar).
I still disagree with this viewpoint that seeks to reduce history into a single moment. As I have already stated countries are not like people. And what do we mean by modern? I assume its a reference to Greek independence following centuries of Ottoman rule? Do we mean by ''modern'' concepts of democracy? or the modern borders of Greece as a sovereign state?

Even on that basis I think other dates are worth examining too.

For example, according to Greek tradition the revolution against the Otoman's was declared on 25 March 1821 by Metropolitan Germanos who raised the banner with the cross in the Monastery of Agia Lavra.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence

I appreciate some historians have questioned this. Someone clearly needs to tell the Greek government too though as I understand Greece celebrates its independence day then to mark that symbolically important date.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... ndence-Day

Whether is is historically accurate or national myth there is no denying the Peloponnese, with its long tradition of resistance to the Ottomans, became the heartland of the revolt.

Maniots, known for their martial qualities, were the very first to join the Greek liberation movement and their contribution proved to be pivotal. The society called the Filiki Eteria sent their representatives Perrevos and Chrisospathis to organize the Maniots. On March 17, 1821, 12,000 Maniots gathered in the church of the Taxiarchs (Archangels) of the Capital Maniot City of Areopolis (City of Ares-the God of War, in Spartan Maniot "???????") and declared war against the Ottoman Empire preceding the rest of Greece by about a week. Their flag was white with a blue cross in the center. Atop the flag was the motto "Victory or death". T At the bottom of the flag was an ancient Spartan inscription, "With the shield or on the shield.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniots

On 17 March 1821, war was declared on the Turks by the Maniots in Areopoli. The same day, a force of 2,000 Maniots under the command of Petros Mavromichalis advanced on the Messenian town of Kalamata, where they united with troops under Theodoros Kolokotronis, Nikitaras and Papaflessas; Kalamata fell to the Greeks on 23 March.

This seems to be the actual beginning of the uprising of 1821 against the Ottomans.

In regards 'modern Greece' I think many people (even Greeks themselves) sometimes forget that territorially 'modern Greece' as we know it today was primarily nailed down as late as August 6th 1923. This was when The Treaty of Lausanne came into effect which defined the borders of modern Greece, Turkey and several other countries which were fixed when this Treaty took effect. The Treaty had most significance for Greece and Turkey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lausanne

Unlike historic Greece the modern state of Greece formally conceded the permanent loss of territory in eastern Thrace and Ionia in AsiaMinor/Anatolia that had had substantial Greek populations for millennia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Greekhistory.GIF

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks_in_Turkey

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Helle ... t_1918.jpg

Pedants could object that the final piece in this territorial jig-saw was the award of the Dodecanese Islands to Greece in 1947 from Italy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Greekhistory.GIF

Still, I have, been looking at a new chart for Greece derived from the historic 1923 date. I will discuss this later when I have time.

The restoration of democracy to Greece in 1974 is also of immense significance. Modern democratic Greece surely started (or re-started) then just as modern France can be dated from its 5th Republic in 1958.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/date ... 515819.stm

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

35 by Thomas-Gazis
Mark wrote:
(Liana wrote that) The "birth" of Modern Greece is definitely placed on the Declaration of Independence, January 1, 1822 (Jan.13, 1822 by the present calendar).

I still disagree with this viewpoint that seeks to reduce history into a single moment. As I have already stated countries are not like people. And what do we mean by modern? I assume its a reference to Greek independence following centuries of Ottoman rule? Do we mean by ''modern'' concepts of democracy? or the modern borders of Greece as a sovereign state?


Dear Mark claiming that every nation state has its own (specific) natal horoscope is not reducing history into a single moment. The idea that all "entities" are born at a specific, determinable time lies at the very core of Astrology.

Thus, claiming that each nation state has a specific/unique natal chart complies with the very quintessence of Astrology! And it surely goes against the quintessence of astrology the arbitrary election of later historical dates as the ones representing the basic "astrological geist" of a nation state.
In regards 'modern Greece' I think many people (even Greeks themselves) sometimes forget that territorially 'modern Greece' as we know it today was primarily nailed down as late as August 6th 1923. This was when The Treaty of Lausanne came into effect which defined the borders of modern Greece, Turkey and several other countries which were fixed when this Treaty took effect. The Treaty had most significance for Greece and Turkey.

Unlike historic Greece the modern state of Greece formally conceded the permanent loss of territory in eastern Thrace and Ionia in AsiaMinor/Anatolia that had had substantial Greek populations for millennia.
I object to this point of view. The Treaty of Lausanne (1923) was imposed upon the Greeks by the major western powers and Turkey, so that the major powers' interests would be served - not Greece's. The Greek people did not want at all this painful to them treaty (they lost to Turkey immense territories that had been Greek for thousands of years). Nor a Greek declaration of independence (from the Turks) was proclaimed back in 1923 - since the Greeks had already declared their independence on the 1st of January 1822 (after 400 years of Turkish military occupation)!

And it doesn't matter the fact that Greece's surface was back in 1822 just a fraction of its current one. When the USA citizens (to be) declared their own independence the so called "USA's" surface was probably the 1/20 of its current one! But the vast majority of the astrologers worldwide is accepting the July 4th, 1776 as the "founding day" of the USA, although new States have been annexed to the USA as late as a few decades ago!
The restoration of democracy to Greece in 1974 is also of immense significance. Modern democratic Greece surely started (or re-started) then just as modern France can be dated from its 5th Republic in 1958.


I think it's not a very efficient assessment to compare the 5th French Republic of 1958 with the fall of the Greek junta in 1974. The seven years military junta did not impact considerably Greece nor it radically altered its constitution. In 1974 Greece was not very different from what it had been back in 1967 - prior to the military coup that is...

Thomas Gazis
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