First of all, thank you for taking the trouble and time to put up a mystery chart. It is much appreciated, although not always there is the time to pursue it in the desired detail.

The thread is gone from the traditional approach, so perhaps I can post my question here? That Jupiter is indeed interesting, I wonder what it means that it is out of sect though?
I would very much appreciate your thoughts on that.

Also, it might be interesting to consider this chart using Placidus houses: where Jupiter then is in the 4th house, which seems to fit better the description of his ancestry/provenence. It's a personal preference of course...

thanks lara,

you make a very good point about the house position of jupiter.. regardless of what house system one uses, jupiter rules the ic, or position opposite the midheaven which astrologers often associate with a persons ancestry.. i think some refer to it as the house of the father, which might be shorthand for the house of our ancestors.. that margerie comes from a fairly prominent family would be reflected in jupiters position in the chart very well here.

personally i don't think it means much that jupiter is out of sect. my own thinking is more along the lines of marc edmund jones innovative ideas on chart patterns.. one of the patterns he articulated was referred to as a bucket chart where one planet operated as a handle to the rest of the chart. that is how i see jupiter operating in this chart.

we have to weigh a lot of different theories or viewpoints in astrology and sect is one of them. a planet in it's own sect is said to operate more effectively.. jupiter in this chart does overcome the ascendant ruler mars thru the upper square to mars here. that immediately gives it more significance as i see it. it is also in a partial trine to the sun which is the light of sect, and as a spearbearer which i am not totally sure what that means! i mostly think in modern terms in that an exact trine involving the sun and jupiter is indeed very powerful as the sun is given the opportunity to bask in a high level of optimism and broadmindedness that will reap a number of rewards that can't be gotten in other combinations nearly so easily.. it is almost like divine providence looks down favourably on the person which i think is the case in this persons life as i understand it.

i deleted my post on traditional and sidereal forum as there was no one who was interested in participating on those forums!!! i am perfectly fine with anyone discussing whatever they want about this chart though, including ideas that are more the domain of those forums.. this is the beauty of the 'general' forum!

my opinion is that there is no danger if they are not activated essential points in the horoscope.

This would mean that Jupiter should in any manner be an important planet in the chart.
It is likely that the ruler of the ascendant.

In this case, two heavy transit to two important planets (Pluto square Jupiter and opposition Uranus; Uranus conjunction Jupiter and trine Sun)

With Saturn trine Mars, and Ma square Moon, we have all the predispositions for such a severe event

For fulfilling the condition that must be attacked at least two important planet and must be two heavy transit on important planets, with the trigger of events in the form of Mars or Saturn ... whereby they fulfilled all the conditions ...

Sorry for my english

hi alex,

thanks for sharing your perspective.. even though english is not your first language, i understand you well..

the viewpoint from a traditional angle is to examine the hyleg.. either a primary direction to the hyleg, or the hyleg directed to different planets/points in the chart will say something about the final demise of a person.. the hyleg in this chart is the sun which also happens to be in hayz - a particularly strong placement for the light of sect.

often times the primary direction data ( which i haven't looked at for this chart on the time of his death) is reflected in the solar arc directions.. for this point in time i note solar arc sun in opposition to natal jupiter.. both the directed sun and natal jupiter are 45/135 the ascendant which is thought to be the giver of life.. not sure what this means in terms of the timing of his death other then to note as i mentioned in the last post that jupiter is the planet ruling the 4th house cusp which is also said to be the end of life, or resting place for the chart.. don't know if i am stretching meanings here, but that is how i understand it to a degree..

Thank you James for your explanation: very insightful.
I just wish to add 2 teasers (most respectfully): I was aware that Jupiter did rule the IC, but having it in the 4th might be an indication of "death by flying" perhaps?
Second teaser: I don't know the personage, roughly read his wiki profile. Ehmmm, what about that Jupiter being out of sect and bringing to the fore the more "shrewd/dishonest" properties of a businessman? Again, I don't know the person, I just wonder... I am trying to learn what the weight of sect is, and it might be irrelevant as you point out.

good stuff lara.. thanks!

i think any business person can be viewed thru the ethic/moral lense and they typically are more often then some other members of society..

i guess technically it was death from not getting off the ground, more then it was flying, but it was in an airplane, so maybe that connection works.. death from travel at any rate, which also happens often enough.

personally i would be looking at the venus in virgo out of sect as more of a trouble maker in the chart myself.. jupiter is still a part of the three planets that are a part of the diurnal sect.. jupiter being in the lower half of the chart is a 2ndary consideration. on the other hand venus being so close to the midheaven degree and a part of the 3 planets of the nocturnal sect is more of a big deal to me.. suppose it could be argued that jupiter is unable to connect directly with the ascendant or midheaven by being out of aspect with these signs.. i suppose this has relevance from a traditional astro pov..

business always seem to have a ruthless dynamic to it and it must be hard for people who do business on such a high level, to also do it with a high level of integrity.. we are all doing business too, but i suppose it is different for someone as high profile as him.. i don't know if we can get an objective answer to your question!

here's another tidbit which i have been thinking over the past week.. how much does the fact he has only 1 planet in an air sign - neptune -( or none if you leave out the outer planets) impact who he is as a person? i was thinking of the emphasis in fire/earth as a locomotive type personality that is capable of accomplishing a lot.. the absence of air implies to me a type of temperament that is less caught up in what i associate with that element - social formalities and interactions, and whatever else an astrologer might associate with the air element - relationship, communication, friendships - etc. etc.. i wonder what others think about this aspect of any chart.. it is hard to know what it means for margerie in particular as we don't have a thorough bio to work with, and even if we did it might be missing very personal insight which could only be gotten in an intimate first hand context.

james_m wrote:here's another tidbit which i have been thinking over the past week.. how much does the fact he has only 1 planet in an air sign - neptune -( or none if you leave out the outer planets) impact who he is as a person? i was thinking of the emphasis in fire/earth as a locomotive type personality that is capable of accomplishing a lot.. the absence of air implies to me a type of temperament that is less caught up in what i associate with that element - social formalities and interactions, and whatever else an astrologer might associate with the air element - relationship, communication, friendships - etc. etc.. i wonder what others think about this aspect of any chart.. it is hard to know what it means for margerie in particular as we don't have a thorough bio to work with, and even if we did it might be missing very personal insight which could only be gotten in an intimate first hand context.

I was wondering about the lack of air in the charts of Newton (only Venus and Pluto in air signs) and Einstein (only Jupiter in air) - given that air not least stands for the movement of the intellect, and that these two men are among the greatest thinkers in human history. However, as you pointed out, air also has to do with social interaction and social competence, and in light of this consideration, things make much more sense... Newton was a notoriously reserved person. Einstein could be fairly sociable at times (with Jupiter in Aquarius ruling his Moon in Sagittarius) but also often secluded himself. Further, he was known not to care much about his public reputation (to the concern of some of his colleagues). So I think it's sensible to assume that the air missing in the chart stands for little interest in social interaction. But unlike in the two scientists' charts (where other factors modify the picture), the lack of air here may in fact also indicate scant appreciation for abstract thinking - being an excellent business man presupposes a very sober down-to-earth way of employing one's mind (I guess).

hi michael,

thanks for sharing some interesting thoughts on the topic of the missing element air in a few chart examples. i am going to take this up on another thread.. i think it's worth pursuing in a separate thread.. i have a lot going on right now, but hopefully i can address it early this coming week. thanks!

Hi James,

I'm standing by for your thread. How about addressing the elements (and their lack, respectively) in charts in general?

Hi, again!

It's nice to see more thoughts on this chart.

What i thought of adding earlier (I gave up because it just didn't make much sense after I'd found out the men's profession) was that, after giving the chart a closer inspection, finances did seem like a better choice of profession given that POF is inside the 2nd and Jupiter is inside the 5th. Jupiter opposing Saturn and placed inside a fiery sign inside the 5th, along with the strong 8th, was clearly an indicator of something to do with fortunes and yet, a risky business. Investments (a form of professional gambling), large sums of money, slippery grounds...
I have already shared my impressions on the 10th and the 9th (a strong Sun never fails, does it, the man was a REAL boss). However, the presence of Pluto inside the 10th translated what I assumed was suggesting a profession linked to catastrophes into the most literal manifestation - he died in a plain crash on a business trip.

It is indeed unfortunate that we don't have more informations about his private life because I'd be very interested in comparing the informations about his family inheritance to this chart. But, still, as I already said, it's a great example chart!

Cheers,

aglaya

These were my surface impressions before knowing who he was. I thought, violent death or assassination. Too many malefics affecting the ascendant lord.

Capable of great wealth, the dispositor Saturn nicely dignified. Family wise, I'd usually say he'd have 5 kids or more, but since Aries is barren, We cut that number in half. In his professional life he'd have many honors and be highly intelligent about his business. His friends have power and means. The majority of his planets being above the horizon definitely supports a public figure. But the fact that all of his Non-Sect planets are above the horizon is worrying.

Now once I knew who he was, things clicked into place for me as far what Venus meant.

In his personal life I'd say he made an enemy of his wife, and he may have slept around on her. Christophe certainly made enemies of the U.S. by siding with Russia. Very sad, as this was a great man (by eminence and public honor, if not personal ethics or morals) who had no protection anywhere from enemies everywhere.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/was-totals ... ia/5409726

james_m wrote:hi alex,

thanks for sharing your perspective.. even though english is not your first language, i understand you well..

the viewpoint from a traditional angle is to examine the hyleg.. either a primary direction to the hyleg, or the hyleg directed to different planets/points in the chart will say something about the final demise of a person.. the hyleg in this chart is the sun which also happens to be in hayz - a particularly strong placement for the light of sect.

Yes I know for such an approach of traditional astrology

james_m wrote: often times the primary direction data ( which i haven't looked at for this chart on the time of his death) is reflected in the solar arc directions.. for this point in time i note solar arc sun in opposition to natal jupiter.. both the directed sun and natal jupiter are 45/135 the ascendant which is thought to be the giver of life.. not sure what this means in terms of the timing of his death other then to note as i mentioned in the last post that jupiter is the planet ruling the 4th house cusp which is also said to be the end of life, or resting place for the chart.. don't know if i am stretching meanings here, but that is how i understand it to a degree..

? and here is accentuated jupiter again... so I doubt in a very small displacement Asc in sagittarius (only four minutes difference changes Asc)

In practice, very often at critical moments, have been attacked lights (Sun and/or Moon) and Asc (over rulers Asc., or planets in the Ascendant if any)

Of course if we are talking about accidents