tom/deb

i hesitated to say what i said, but it was my experience of him and i stand by it. i appreciate your taking a different approach to help balance mine!

it is funny how individuals will show one side to one person that they don't show to another.. i guess it is human nature.. my only experience is on his forum where i was rightly viewed as a nobody in the astrological community.. perhaps if i was a different person who was starting to stand out in the astrological world community it would be different, but it wasn't and that ain't me..

i am telling you how i experienced him thru the forum he oversees. pompous and full of himself is how i saw him.. he treated those who had a different viewpoint that himself in an unfriendly and hostile manner, or his fleet of women admirers/groupies/students would essentially try to correct anyone who veered from his esteemed viewpoint. that was my experience. thanks for saying something positive on him. i am sure there are some good sides to him too!

There is no doubt Noel Tyl has a large personality. Anyone who has attended one of his workshops would attest to that.

Because of that he often generates strong reactions in people either positive or negative. As we say here in the UK he is a bit like Marmite.

About 12 years ago my own Association came close to splitting up over divisions between us over those who strongly liked Tyl and wanted more workshops with him and those who couldn't abide him. So you will understand if I am rather guarded in what I say on this subject!

There is sometimes a problem that some astrologers assume a guru like status amongst many of their pupils. I can think of at least one traditional astrologer this might apply to. But is that really their fault or their students?

I have noticed that some personality types want to be spoon fed all the answers from one source. When they come across a strong , charismatic teacher they find it easy to become a ''true believer'' with a very narrow approach. So I do wonder if this isn't really more a problem of people being intellectually lazy and not willing to continue to examine and explore the answers for themselves. I think we all have a responsibility to keep asking questions, and testing ideas out in practice for ourselves. Plus there are a myriad of astrological approaches out there to learn from. Its not as if we live in an astrological North Korea where one astrologer controls all the media, bookshops and internet!

Getting back to the astrology (at last!) one thing I would say in favour of Tyl is that he teaches his students a system which they can verify with charts. So the assumption of some traditional astrologers that modern astrology is very vague at times doesn't really fit with Tyl's approach. I may personally not concur with him on many areas but there is no denying he has brought astrology alive for many people who have otherwise really struggled to interpret charts training with other schools.

I think we should be able to discuss Tyl's ideas here without getting into a debate on what we make of Tyl's personality. As someone who has attended a workshop on solar arcs with Tyl and own his book on the subject I really cannot agree with James that Tyl takes credit for inventing the technique! He cites many other sources in his book such as Naibod! Still, Tyl is no historian. As I recall his book cites German sources but rather bizarrely neglects the English astrologers like Vivian Robson and Charles Carter that really promoted this as the 'Radix technique' in the early 20th century. I do think that is a significant omission for a book that serves as an astrological door stopper on the subject.

Anyway, anyone for some lunar nodes?

Mark

Tom wrote:

If anyone is seriously interested in Tyl on the nodes, I think I can locate a volume that will give us that information. It will take some digging on my part, so if there is no interest beyond idle curiosity, let it drop

Hi Tom,

Its not exactly just idle intellectual curiosity for me. I am planning to give a talk on this subject and hoping to get to the root of the modern interpretations of the nodes.

I have plenty of material for ancient, medieval and Indian astrology but I am much less clear about how some of the modern ideas Fleur cites originated.

So if you have the time I would appreciate a pointer to where to look for more on this.

Thanks

Mark

Mark wrote:Tom wrote:

If anyone is seriously interested in Tyl on the nodes, I think I can locate a volume that will give us that information. It will take some digging on my part, so if there is no interest beyond idle curiosity, let it drop

Hi Tom,

Its not exactly just idle intellectual curiosity for me. I am planning to give a talk on this subject and hoping to get to the root of the modern interpretations of the nodes.

I have plenty of material for ancient, medieval and Indian astrology but I am much less clear about how some of the modern ideas Fleur cites originated.

So if you have the time I would appreciate a pointer to where to look for more on this.

Thanks

Mark

I would be very interested in this too. I might not be able to do much with it, but as Mark is giving a talk on the Moon's Nodes, that might be worth your while.

Mark wrote: Its not exactly just idle intellectual curiosity for me. I am planning to give a talk on this subject and hoping to get to the root of the modern interpretations of the nodes.

I have plenty of material for ancient, medieval and Indian astrology but I am much less clear about how some of the modern ideas Fleur cites originated.

So if you have the time I would appreciate a pointer to where to look for more on this.

Thanks

Mark

Hi Mark,

While looking for something else I bumped into a copy of "Geocosmic Journal" Winter 2009, which is devoted to the Lunar Nodes. Maybe this could be of use to you? You can check the contest here:

http://geocosmic.org/journal/J-2009WIN.pdf

ea

Hi Mark, what I found follows below. For the record I have a fairly extensive library modern and traditional. I have no problem looking for things that will help others. But we have to understand I have these books mixed with others, all over the house, garage, attic and basement. It's not that I mind helping out, but to dig through a lot of stuff, put it all back neatly (I'm married) then write it up just to satisfy someone's idle curiosity, is more than I'm willing to do.

You're giving a lecture, so I'm happy to help. I'd love to be able to get to Scotland some day and listen to a lecture of yours not only to enjoy the astrology but to enjoy some fine Scottish ale and whisky. I can dream.

A little background is necessary to understand Tyl's position. Tyl is a full blown psychological astrologer and he sees almost everything in the chart through that lens. The nodes are no exception. His main thrust is what he calls "Needs Psychology." That is the native is motivated by and the chart shows his psychological needs and in some cases, like the nodes, the source of those needs.

In his book Synthesis & Counseling in Astrology (my copy is 1994) he spends about a dozen pages on the nodes with example charts. I'll give a synopsis as best I understand it. Also he is drawing on, and credits, the work of an astrologer named Dennis Flaherty, about whom I know nothing.

As would most moderns he dismisses the malefic/benefic delineations of the nodes. He writes:

I see the Lunar Nodal axis as lunar symbolism in relation to the Sun (emphasis in the original) I see the process of the feminine meeting the masculine taking in the Sun's light and transmitting it further, ingesting the seed and putting forth the fruit. I see maternal influence (emphasis in the original). I see the potential for a knot of complication through the mother, or, indeed, an amalgamation of strengths through the maternal influence.

Then he posts Prince Charles' chart without identifying it and after some discussion of some aspects in that chart, he writes regarding the nodes in that chart:

"The Moon conjunct the north node, according to Flaherty, suggests " a restlessness of the mind as it yearns for greater satisfaction
(emphasis in the original).

Additionally, I see it as a knot of maternal influence. A tremendous dominant influence by the mother, echoed by the condition of the 4th house and its ruler. The mother is keeping this man in a world unto himself. He cannot do his thing.

The expression "knot of maternal influence" is the one he uses most often to express the nodes' influence in the life.

In a second chart (female) that he says is from a private client, the north node is conjunct the MC. After some discussion of other factors in the chart he notes;

Her needs to think, socialize, and work to fulfill her own needs were usurped, taken over by the mother to fulfill hers.

So appropriately placed nodes denote a domineering mother. He gives a third example where the nodes aren't conjunct anything and I can't find a single mention of the nodes in an otherwise detailed delineation. He does go on about the Moon in the chart and how this plus his domineering mother influenced his life. The Moon is in the same house (8th) as the north node), but the NN is in a different sign. He does give a further analysis of this chart elsewhere in the book (private client) and I didn't read that. I'm not sure why it's in the chapter on the nodes, unless being in the same house as the Moon is sufficient to trigger this phenomenon.

The last example I'm going to mention is also a private client and he notes the nodal axis squares the MC (North node in the 1st). In this case the female native is the domineering one. This is apparently the result, among other things, of the nodes squaring the parental axis (MC/IC).

So in brief the nodes show "the knot of maternal influence," and by knot I think he means the domineering mother. However we all have the nodes in our charts and we all don't have domineering mothers, so I think he is driving at the idea that when the nodes are somehow in contact with the appropriate planets or points is when this phenomenon exists. A more detailed study of his work would explain that.

I haven't worked with this stuff in about 20 years, so I'm kind of flailing since I can't be 100% certain that he is saying exactly this. But I think so. If someone else can be more explicit or even corrective, please feel free.

ea wrote:

Mark wrote: Its not exactly just idle intellectual curiosity for me. I am planning to give a talk on this subject and hoping to get to the root of the modern interpretations of the nodes.

I have plenty of material for ancient, medieval and Indian astrology but I am much less clear about how some of the modern ideas Fleur cites originated.

So if you have the time I would appreciate a pointer to where to look for more on this.

Thanks

Mark

Hi Mark,

While looking for something else I bumped into a copy of "Geocosmic Journal" Winter 2009, which is devoted to the Lunar Nodes. Maybe this could be of use to you? You can check the contest here:

http://geocosmic.org/journal/J-2009WIN.pdf

ea

That index page of the Geocosmic Journal looked fascinating. Pity we can't read those articles about the Moon's Nodes.

ea wrote:

Hi Mark,

While looking for something else I bumped into a copy of "Geocosmic Journal" Winter 2009, which is devoted to the Lunar Nodes. Maybe this could be of use to you? You can check the contest here:

http://geocosmic.org/journal/J-2009WIN.pdf

ea

Thanks. That looks a fascinating issue. Do you (or any other members) know if back issues of the NCGR Journal are available online?

Thanks

Mark

Tom wrote:

In his book Synthesis & Counseling in Astrology (my copy is 1994) he spends about a dozen pages on the nodes with example charts. I'll give a synopsis as best I understand it.

Thanks very much for doing that Tom. At least Tyl is making comments about something fairly tangible in a nativity that can be checked out in charts.

Our Association Library was clearing out a duplicate of this book recently but I passed the chance to take the book. I rather regret that now. I guess I will need to pick up the book to see what he says in detail. As I recall though its another one of his 1000 page door stopper volumes!

Mark

Mark wrote:
Thanks. That looks a fascinating issue. Do you (or any other members) know if back issues of the NCGR Journal are available online?

Thanks

Mark

Ah, sorry, I should have given the link to that too. Here it is:

http://geocosmic.org/mm5/merchant.mvc?

ea

ea wrote:

Ah, sorry, I should have given the link to that too. Here it is:

http://geocosmic.org/mm5/merchant.mvc?

ea

Thanks a lot ea.

Not just for that link but access to all the other articles there one can purchase.

Very interesting indeed!

Mark