First off I say that no one is born with an astrologer present with stop watch but we still have the objection that primary directions fr'instance - do not work without exact times. Astrology was practised long before we had smart phones that could tell the time and then provide the co-ordinates of lat and long with Google maps app. The ephemerides were not accurate neither.

Frankly I suspect that those who say a chart is not fit to be judged on these bases is simply evading the question and an astrologer is there to answer questions is she not?

I will say more on request

Regards

I will add that mundane astrology need not have the chart of the ruler anyway but will listen to anyone who states au contraire

Mjacob wrote:

Frankly I suspect that those who say a chart is not fit to be judged on these bases is simply evading the question and an astrologer is there to answer questions is she not?

Fair point. I wasn't suggesting avoiding the charts. But I think such uncertain data necessitates serious rectification work if we are going to have confidence in our predictive work. I have probably got rather lazy living in a country that provides birth times on birth certificates.

Mjacob wrote:

I will add that mundane astrology need not have the chart of the ruler anyway but will listen to anyone who states au contraire.

I hope the way I opened this thread helped to demonstrate your point in part.

Mark

lol.. there will be no evasion on my part, but i am calling it like i see it.. i weigh the data accordingly..

Hi James
I am glad that you took my comment in the spirit intended. Had Scotland chose independence we would be on firmer ground in Edinburgh at least
Matthew

Having looked at the chart of Miliband in more depth in terms of
past events it seems to me that a slightly earlier birth is likely.
13:54 is the time which make most sense to me.

Ralph Miliband left his academic post at the London School of Economics in 1972 to take up a chair at Leeds University as a Professor of Politics. His family moved to Leeds with him in 1973 after he suffered a heart attack,

This corresponds to early Solar arcs to the angles:

SA MO-0-IC
SA SA-0-ASC
Eclipse at MC (1 degree)
The solar arc moon to iC is both move and family issues father and Saturn spells problems in early environment.

Assumed office leader of party
25 September 2010

P ASC-180-SU Coming into a position of political leadership

On 25 July 2002, it was announced that Miliband would take a 12-month unpaid sabbatical from the Treasury to be a visiting scholar at the Centre for European Studies of Harvard University for two semesters.[23] He spent his time at Harvard teaching economics

Miliband is married to a barrister, Justine Thornton.[121] The pair met in 2002

P ASC-180-VE
P VE-90-ASC

Note: Venus is placed in 9th house sagittarius in whole sign sidereal which Counts for foreign living, teaching as well as meeting the life partner.

They have two sons, Daniel, born 2009

P MC-135-MO

Marriage 27 may 2011

P DESC.-0-SU
Progressed descendent conjunct SUN
(P venus-45-SU Involved in the angular progression)

SA VE-90-ASC
(solar arc venus Square radix ascendant).


I feel rather comfortable with this chart.
Here is the sidereal chart with whole signs houses:

Stefan

The progressed angles was done with solar arc in right ascension

Prefered by rectification expert Isaac Starckman.

article from scyscript by Mccann:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/pran.html


So from my original post the transits, and the solar arc from neptune to MC is still in orb and effective. Which is not good.
The progressions to the South node does no longer apply, but the other from progressed neptune to Mars and others does not depend on exact birthtime, and these look not good as stated before.

The eclipse to his natal pluto in 6th house can affect his Health, and is transformative in general.

thanks matthew,

stefan - i had noticed the sa neptune to midheaven connection in milibrands chart.. there is also the t pluto to the same midheaven degree and of course the lunar eclipse on about the same axis by square.. all in all - my impression on that wasn't great, but i continue to be conflicted on the data on these charts and how far i want to go in leaning very strongly on any of it tied to the angles.. this is mostly how i weigh things - and it is harder to put great emphasis on angles when one doesn't feel especially comfortable with them. your rectification doesn't move the angles that much - 2 degrees for the midheaven.. it doesn't change the profection data either.. mind you, i am working in tropical as opposed to sidereal..

another part of my problem in doing a rectification is i don't watch tv to see these people on air live, and i haven't read any bios on any of them.. the most well known person is cameron for me.. i get a bit of an image of him but even with that, whether it is libra rising or virgo rising - i would need to know him better..

James - Yes validation of a chart is not a clearcut thing unfortunately. But it's
part of the art of astrology, and the astrologer have a choice to do so, or not.
Personally I sometimes adjust the chart slightly, as many birthtimes are off 5-10 minutes.
I have seen Miliband in action in the news about the elections. Seems like a good man. I heard that some call him a "geek" lol. Wonder about that.
Saturn in first ?

One traditional predictive technique I have found particularly effective is whole sign profections. Its one of a number of 'time lord' system used in ancient and medieval astrology.

To put it at its simplest if a solar arc=1 day of daily motion for sun is a year, in profections we have the chart rotating a sign every year after birth.

In its original conception a profection involved progressing the whole chart by a whole sign house every year.

Last year for example, Alex Salmond the former leader of the Scottish National Party was going through a 12th house profetional year up to his birthday in December. Also the Lord of the year in his chart Mercury (Lord 12) was badly placed in his solar return chart. This along with other indicators led me to conclude he was unlikely to have a successful year and therefore as a consequence it seemed unlikely he could win the referendum.

How do our current main candidates stand based on the position of their Lord of the year at close of polls?

David Cameron has been in a 1st house profectional year since his birthday last October shortly after the Scottish Independence Referendum.
His Lord of the year is therefore his ASC ruler Venus. I do think its very interesting that Venus moves into Cancer (Cameron's tenth house) a couple of hours after the polls close on May 7th. Venus also enters into an opposition with the Moon at this point.

Miliband is having a 10th house profectional year. So his Lord of the year at present is Saturn which traditionally rules Aquarius. So matters of career success and his status in the public sphere have never been more prominent for Miliband. However,this theme for the year doesn't guarantee Miliband success. We need to weight up how well his Lord of the Year is faring.

At the general election Saturn is retrograde and transiting Miliband's 8th house by whole sign houses. Although Saturn is angular and in the 7th by any method of sign division. But Saturn by retrograde motion is applying to an opposition with a debilitated Mars in Taurus. Saturn is transiting the malefic fixed star Dschubba on May 7th which is in the tail or sting of the Scorpion. According to Ptolemy it is of the nature of Mars and Saturn.


Mark

Another time lord system I like using are the Indian dashas.

I have found the popular Vimshottra dasha based on the position of the Moon in the Indian Lunar mansions useful and often very reflective of the fate of politicians.

The dasha sub periods (Bhukti) are most useful for shorter term indicators. My idiosyncracy is that I interpret the strength of the planets in the dasha periods by reference to the tropical rather than the sidereal radix chart.

Ed Miliband is going through a Mercury main dasha (Mahadasa) and since Sept 2014 to Feb 2016 he been in a Moon sub period. While tropically he has Moon in Cancer, his Moon is conjunct the IC. Miliband has clearly struggled to gain popular appeal amongst the public. In polls he rates far lower than his party as a whole while David Cameron rates much higher than his party in appeal. There is no indication of any dramatic change in his fortune during this period. The Moon is natally, in Miliband's third house by equal and WSH. An emphasis on Lord 3 doesn't seem symptomatic of success to me.

David Cameron has been going through a Venus main dasha but a South Node (ketu)sub period since April 2014. However, he enters a new main dasha period altogether at the end of June when he enters a new solar dasha period. Its true Cameron's Sun is in fall in Libra. Nevertheless it is angular and in his first house and it forms a sextile to his Moon in Leo in the 11th house. Moreover, his Sun rules the fortunate 11th house. Perhaps an indication of gaining coalition allies?

To me it looks like the dashas favour Cameron. But if Miliband has totally different angles in his chart the Moon/IC point obviously loses validity.

Mark

stefan,

thanks for highlighting what i obviously want to talk about - the art or science of astrology.. i feel that i have to skate around with a few different techniques to get a better grasp of it given i can't lean as strongly on the angles as i would like... that's all i need to repeat about that! stefan - geek factor - maybe mercury on the midheaven, or sun/uranus square more then saturn rising is how i would see that..

i feel like if i don't say a few things in scattered posts, i won't get round to saying some of what i've already been looking at as someone will have already covered it!

so i am looking at solar returns and profections.. i haven't used profections enough to know how much merit to give them. solar arc directions are more my thing..

overall, as mark has already stated, on balance the pic looks a bit better for cameron then milibrand.. they are the only 2 cats i have looked at closely so far.

the event chart - may 7th - i am noting how jupiter connects nicely to camerons chart, more so then milibrands. well jupiter hits the sun/venus midpoint in milis chart and the moon position in the may 7th chart is also emphasizing milis sun/venus which is net positive too.. i don't like some of what i see in milis solar return chart next to his natal.. some positive but more negative..

camerons solar return chart with natal looks mostly positive.. note the jupiter position at the ascendant/midheaven midpoint if the angles are close.. they could back up a bit and catch the jupiter from the event chart too if need be.. jupiter in the sr is at the mars/moon midpoint as well. the mars/jupiter trine in the solar arc connecting to the angles in the sr chart also look very positive.. and as mark has already mentioned the profection chart if libra rising tropical is valid is being replicated again for this year putting an emphasis on it's ruler venus.. venus is in a good place in the sr chart as mark might have already said too..

milibrands profection lord is saturn which brings us back to it's natal rising position and retro in taurus... i don't think it is in a good place in the solar return chart tangled up with neptune which is catching his natal mars at 6 pisces which is close to the solar return ascendant at 11 using this 2pm time for him.. i don't like all that..

solar arc data for both men highlight the angles with neptune which i think is net negative.. milibrand 2pm time gives a slightly better result as though the midheaven has sa neptune on it, the sa ascendant hits natal venus.. i am just noticing a fairly sharp 45 between mercury/mars in milis chart.. does the guy have a sharp tongue? the me/ma 45 has been moving thru this same config the past year or so.. born in 1969 + 45 brings the chart to a repeat in 2014.. that's an annoying feature of solar arc data..

maybe the mojo is cameron has more curb appeal then milibrand.. in a society that values venus rising over saturn rising, the venus is going to win.. maybe it was different in a different era where substance was considered more relevant then charm.. i don't know that cameron is very charming from what i have seen of him!

i will have to look at the other candidates, but on balance my loosey goosey take is cameron seems to have the edge in the astro over milibrand..

what about party charts? anyone working with any of them?

Stefan wrote: I have seen Miliband in action in the news about the elections. Seems like a good man. I heard that some call him a "geek" lol. Wonder about that.
Saturn in first ?

A question of vital import. When we plebes go to the polls and cannot pick a party we vote for the best-looking leader. Saturn gives thick lips and swarthy complexion - lumpish heavy unpleasing.

Camerons plump cheeks and smooth skin are clearly Venusian

Matthew

On a more serious note I no longer see this a a beauty contest between the two English party leaders. One country is voting for their own National Party so it means English voters are largely in fact voting for English parties. The Scots never came back to the Tories and I bet they do not come back to labour either. The House of Commons will be a House divided against itself with all that implies. There are clues in the stars already I think