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Assistance please with a Horary Question

1 by Linda M
Hi Everyone,

I'm new here....I was referred to here by someone helpful.....

I'm very interested in Astrology and have been working on learning it for a couple of years now....although I still have a lot to learn....

I composed an event chart on Astro.com (the link to follow) about a question pertaining to my husbands boss....whom does not have the qualifications to be Plant Manager.....

The question I ask was...."Will Dave be fired from being Plant Mgr before long"....

Since I named him....he's ruled by the 7th house...
Neptune(6th house-work) is opposing Saturn and Saturn is also retrograde....Wouldn't this indicate someone above him is reviewing his work and isn't happy with his abilities...

Neptune is squaring Jupiter...indicating excessive conflict with others
Jupiter is opposing Mars....costing the company money....which he really is for sure...

The moon is square the AC in a fairly early degree(14) and since I've composed the question the moon has already changed signs (now in Pisces).....so....shouldn't a shake up have already happened or is about to happen.....

What am I missing here....is my timing off.....I really feel that he will be fired around the 15th of March.....??????

Chart URL:

http://www.astro.com/cgi/showgif.cgi?la ... es=100&va=

thanks
Linda M

2 by Tom
Hi Linda and welcome,

I tried the link. The chart expired. Please post the data, and we'll take a crack at it.

Just so you'll know, many, but certainly not all the astrologers here are traditionalists and so they might have a slightly different take on things, e.g. using the 6th house for work (the 10th is work), and using Neptune to rule Pisces. We'll wait and see.

Who is Dave? A friend (11th house), a sibling (3rd house), a spouse (7th house)? We need to know that. Aspects in horary are not often used the same way they are in natal astrology. In general applying aspects show things that will happen and separating things that have happened. But tight aspects to relevant significators should never be ignored.

Finally timing in a horay can be in real time or symbolic time. For example, a promised event may be shown by an applying aspect with three degrees separation. That could mean three hours, three days, three weeks, three months or three years, depending on the question and the position of the significators.

Please post the data and let's have a peek.

Tom

4 by Tom
Hi Linda,

I'll look at the chart tomorrow, but to answer our question:
I was thinking that 6th house deals with your work on a daily basis....doesn't it????

Modern astrologers and some traditionalists put "everyday work" in the 6th. But that usually pertains to work other than the career, such as housework, lawn mowing or other routine tasks. The 10th is usually reserved for career. One traditionalist who does put "work" in the 6th is Robert Zoller, and Deb might, too. I'm not sure. I wasn't taught that way.

The 6th is originally the house of servants, or if you go back far enough the house of slaves - your slaves, should you own a few. Being a slave would be a 12th house affair. But your work or as we would say today, your career, is a 10th house matter. It is the house of "action." When we wish to inquire as to the type of career one has we ask, "What do you DO?" [emphasis added], So for that reason I would stick with the 10th house. "Servants" in the contemporary sense would be people we hire to work for us such as the auto mechanic or plumber, although you would hardly know it given their sometimes fierce independence.

I'm assuming you asked the question, and not Dave (I missed the relationship between you and Dave in your first post. Sorry I was a bit sloppy there). So Dave is your husband and therefore the 7th house, and his boss would be the 4th house which is the 10th of the 7th. Sagittarius is on the 4th cusp and Pisces is on the 7th, both are ruled by Jupiter. But the question isn't about Dave so we can give the boss Jupiter in Scorpio.

I am resisting the temptation to continue this line of thought and using the 10th of the 4th (the first) and note that its significator, Mercury, is combust and saying he will get fired. I think that might be a stretch.

Work with this and I"ll look at it again when I'm not so tired. Take these things into consideration: Jupiter's last aspect was to Mars in Taurus (detriment). Mars rules the 3rd which is the 12th of the 4th and the house of "self undoing," so he may have done something (separating aspect) that will be his undoing. Jupiter's next aspect is a sextile from a retrograde Venus in Capricorn. This is interesting since Venus is the lesser benefic and she rules the radical 2nd which is the boss' 11th house of friends, so he may be rescued by a friend. Venus is also conjunct the 4th cusp or derivied 10th by antiscion. Maybe he's just lucky.

At first glance the guy may deserve to be fired, but it looks like he'll be saved. Work with this a bit and we'll have another go at it tomorrow.

Oh I used Regiomontanus cusps. You may have used Placidus and I don't know if that changes anything in this case or not. Let me know your house system, too.

Thanks,

Tom

5 by Linda M
Hi Tom...

I think we may be a bit off......Yes I am the one asking the question...which I did forget to state...sorry for this.....

Dave is the "Plant Manager" for the company that my husband (Bill) works for.....Dave has done some underhanded things and does deserve to get fired......

Yes.....I do use the Placidus house system.....

I will take a different look at this agian using the 10th house for career....

Thanks
Linda M

6 by amandaW
Hi Linda
I am inclined to wonder what the real question should be here. We have had a few threads on the forum which talk about when one can ask a valid horary question and concluding it should be about something that directly impacts the questioner.

From this I have come to the conclusion that if you need to turn the chart too much then the person being asked about is too far removed from you to constitute a valid horary. In this case you are asking about your husband's boss's career. that would technically be the 10th from the 10th from the 7th house! ( I think!). The fact that it is not obvious where to look suggests perhaps you shouldn't be asking about a remote person's job.

That said, of course there is presumably a reason that you want to know other than idle curiosity, so maybe you should be reframing the question depending on how the situation will directly affect you and/or your partner.
possible questions would be ( these are examples your exact situation will differ)
eg if the boss leaving will provide a vacancy, "will my husband get promoted?"
or simply - "are the conditions of my husbands job going to improve/become more difficult/stay the same within the next xxx months"
etc..
And even these may not be valid if the conditions of your husbands employment have no bearing on your relationship. Anyway try seeing it from you ( the questioners) perpective.

7 by Tom
Hi Linda,

OK Head's a bit more clear, brain is functioning at least 75%, and Amelia's post got me to thinking.

Recitation of a couple of basics is in order. It is always true, and I think it is in this case, that the querent (person asking the question) has to have sincere interest in the outcome. Some astrologers go further and say that the querent has to have some involvement in the outcome, but I'm not so sure that is true and if the question is sincere, then the querent has some involvement, no?

Secondly Amelia's question about the proper phrasing of the question did point out something I did that no astrologer should ever do: I assumed the intent or purpose of asking the question, and I did so because if I looked at it my way it struck a nerve. I once worked for a horrid boss - so bad that I considered taking a pay cut just to get rid of him quickly. I know what it is like going to work dreading each day. When you mentioned that the boss did some unethical things, I identified with that and made the assumption that you and perhaps yor husband, were just eagar to get rid of the guy. However, Amelia's post made me wonder about something I should have asked. If the true reason for wanting this guy out of the way, unethical behavior or not, is that your husband is in line for the job, then the true question is: Will my husband get promoted?

What is interesting is that in this chart, that probably makes very little difference unless there are still other reasons for the question as yet unmentioned. Jupiter rules both your husband and the boss or job, so we'd use the same significator. I'm going to look at the question as it was asked: Will your husband's boss be fired?

Amelia also mentioned excessive turning of the chart, and she has a point, but in this case, I think the chart turning is necessary and not particularly excessive.

Usually we look at the rulers of the first (radical or turned) and the 10th. In this case they are the same. We also look for fixity in the angles, and the rulers. The ruler of the turned 10th is in a fixed sign (Jupiter is in Scorpio). This is a strong indication that the boss stays. The mutable angles are probably not enough to overcome this. I would look for cardinal signs to indicate a change.

Also if the significator is about to change signs it is an indication that the boss is leaving. In this case Jupiter is not. As I mentioned last night the last aspect to Jupiter was an opposition to Mars (also in a fixed sign). But Mars is not the ruler of either the quesited or his job even if we turn the chart again and use the ASC as the 10th of the 4th. And in fact if we do turn the chart that much we also see that Lord 1, Mercury, is also in a fixed sign. So it looks like he's staying.

If you are asking about a promotion for your husband, since your husband is also ruled by Jupiter, as is his job, and Jupiter is in a fixed sign, then it doesn't seem likely he will be changing any time soon, either.

Finally, there is the Arabic part of resignation or dismissal (The position of Saturn + the position of Jupiter minus the position of the Sun)and it is of interest and it does offer some contradictory testimony, the sort that drives horary astrologers nuts. That part is at 18 Taurus and Jupiter applies to oppose it. By it itself, (i.e. if we had nothing else) this would be strong testimony that the boss would be fired. However, Arabic parts do not normally overrule other testimony, they support it, so I would have to say that: assuming you simply want to get rid of this guy, and are not asking about your husband's promotion, then I think the boss stays.

Nothing in this life is permanent. I ultimately got rid of my boss, and if it is for the best, I hope your husband does, too.

Tom

8 by Linda M
Hi Tom...

Thanks...you make some very good points....

No...my husband would "not" be in line for that job....in fact he is currently looking for a new job to get us moved back east.....which I noticed you are in NJ.....we have really good friends in southern Jersey close to Atlantic City.....

This guy does need to be fired because it would be in the best interest of the company.....

I am learning that Horary Astrology is very complicated and confusing.....I still have a long way to go in learning.....just when you think you kinda start to figure things out.....hmmmm....your way off track....

May I ask how long you've been into Astrology.....I know it really takes several years of studing to learn this stuff......

I really like this board and I plan to be a regular to hopefully get all of you all's help in learning this stuff.....

Thanks
Linda M

9 by Tom
Hi Linda,

I don't think horary is confusing once we get into the right mindset. I agree at first it seems overwhelming because we run into more experienced horary astrologers and then there are all those rules! Add to that most of us begin by thinking "in natal" so to speak and this particular use of astrology just looks confusing.

In the grand scheme of things it is probably the most simple use of astrology. After all it is easier to unravel a question than it is to unravel a life. It's more of a case of stepping back, shutting off the natal part of the brain and watching what is being done. Quite simply in most cases all the horary astrologer is doing is looking to see if two planets come together by applying aspect. The trick is knowing which two planets to use.

Simple Example: Will John and I be married? You are the first house, lets say its Libra and ruled therefore by Venus. John is the 7th house and would be Aries and ruled by Mars. If Venus and Mars are in applying aspect with nothing interfering before the aspect perfects, the answer is "Yes." If there is no aspect, the answer is "No." Almost all horary questions are based on this simple principle, but, admitedly, nothing is ever quite that simple.

WIll John marry me and if not, why not? John's significator is separating from yours and heading, with mutual reception, to the ruler of the 3rd house. the rat is hooking up with your sister. We can look pretty deep into a lot of questions. Like everything in astrology, some charts are easier to read than others.

Let me recommend three horary books:

The Horary Textbook by John Frawley
Horary Astrology Pain and Simple by Anthony Louis
Horary Astrology Rediscovered by Olivia Barclay

All are good and easy to read and follow. Many people find that a good grasp of horary helps their natal work, too.

Also, go to the home page of this site and download Deb Houlding's book "The Houses Temples of the Sky." It is sadly ot of print, but available here for free I think, and it is a wonderful resource and a good read.

As for me I've had this on again off again love affair with astrology beginning in the late 1980s. I studied horary astrology a few years back, it's probably more than a few now, and I think it gave me my first good grasp of the subject. Oh get the latest copy of The Mountain Astrologer Magazine. Deborah is interviewed by one of our contributors, Gary Phillipson. There are some really insightful comments about horary by Deb in that interview.

Welcome to the forum. There are lots of good people on board. Feel free to ask questions, and when you get here, welcome to New Jersey, my home state.

Tom
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