In Miliband's chart with Taurus rising
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Miliband,_Ed
Saturn is in the Gauquelin zone behind the Ascendant, which is supposed to be even stronger for career and worldly manifestation than if it were exactly conjunct the Ascendant.

This Saturn is opposition Jupiter and square Neptune's antiscion. Yet it seems Saturn dominates.

Mjacob wrote:In any case the Gemini rising chart was withdrawn because it was wrong so we are stuck with Taurus but the criteria for any kind of public image is a tenth house matter rather than a sign issue I would humbly suggest
Matthew

Wouldn't public image and worldly manifestation be a matter of all the chart angles? (And according to Gauquelin, it is the areas behind the chart angles that are most powerful in this respect).

Good point Fleur. As you may gather I lean toward the traditional approach but for me I heard about Gauquelin long before I heard about Ptolemy and his five degree rule. The Saturn opposition is a stand out to me rather than Neptune I have to say
Matthew

Mcajob wrote:

Good point Fleur. As you may gather I lean toward the traditional approach but for me I heard about Gauquelin long before I heard about Ptolemy and his five degree rule. The Saturn opposition is a stand out to me rather than Neptune I have to say
Matthew

I confess I may be biased on the subject of house placement but to me at least using WS houses Saturn operates as a first house planet in this chart. Mind you using a medieval orb it is conjunct the ASC if you see it in the 12th.

Mark

hi matthew. i'm sorry. i was just responding to that one word and running with it in relation to the possibility of miliband having taurus or gemini rising. i have always made an association with the ascendant and appearance. of course it is modified by planets rising and planets in other angles too, but overall i go with a planet in the ascendant, or making a hard aspect to the ascendant as having more bearing on appearance. i suppose this means i think that any planet aspecting the ascendant modifies the appearance. i am not as sure about planets aspecting the midheaven and appearance. i mostly think of this as having some say on their social position, place or standing in the society and culture they live in, but if the angles are connected by aspect it presents a different scenario.. if not - i mostly i think of the ascendant directly connected to appearance..

let me give an example, as i get tired of theory without some concrete examples. i have a friend i am going for coffee with in the next hour - moon in virgo on the ascendant exact - and square uranus exact - 16 virgo ascendant, 16 virgo moon, 16 gemini uranus and 14 gemini midheaven.. for me he is a good example of some of the unusual quirk i would associate of someone with moon square uranus on the ascendant.. now, maybe it has to do with the midheaven, but i think it has more to do with the ascendant.. he has had an influential and visionary role to play in the line of work he has done over the course of his life and is seen as such in a public context, but the image - well maybe i am going around in circles here, lol... you get my viewpoint and didn't mean to offend with my comments on miliband with saturn rising.. it would be modified with the jupiter setting too which i haven't addressed in my comments. last comment for today as i have to get some work done.. ps - i have saturn rising too fwiw, but also moon rising with other factors modifying it all as well..

Mark wrote:
I confess I may be biased on the subject of house placement but to me at least using WS houses Saturn operates as a first house planet in this chart. Mind you using a medieval orb it is conjunct the ASC if you see it in the 12th.

Mark

There is more than one way to skin a cat. How about the Sripati house system or whatever that holds that cusp means middle rather than start of house then you get 15 degrees each side. In the case of the ingress chart ( a desperate attempt to get back on topic) I gave Venus as ruler of the year on WSH but you could say Mars as dignified in the fifth too even though he is on his last legs of the synodic cycle .....&c
Matthew

James, interesting that you are making the distinction between the Ascendant showing appearance and the Midheaven showing public image or career.

I was curious what Matthew said about Ptolomy's 5 degree rule, but didn't ask because it sounds like something everyone else here knows. I wondered if it meant that planets lying 5 degrees behind the angles are the most manifest? Similar to what Gauquelin said about the extra power in career and worldly renown of planets lying behind the angles.

I have looked at charts and wondered if planets behind the angles, as per Gauquelin, are about career and worldly standing, and planets lying in front of the angles about appearance?

I have often wondered if planets in front of the angles, even in the tenth house, are just for show, and who people really are in the world is about planets that lie behind the (Placidean) angles?

Mcajob wrote:

There is more than one way to skin a cat. How about the Sripati house system or whatever that holds that cusp means middle rather than start of house then you get 15 degrees each side.
Matthew

I have been involved in a discussion over on the general forum entitled ''The Vehlow House System.''

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8744

That system is well known in India where it is particularly associated with B.V. Raman. Along with whole sign and sripati this house system can begin the first house far above the ASC. In the case of Vehlow-Raman houses it is fifteen degrees to be specific.

Like Fleur I try to take account of the Gauquelin research seriously in my astrology. In particular his planetary plus zones. It seems to me Gauquelin's findings are in practical terms ignored by most of the astrological community.

As I point out on that thread there are 3 conventional house systems that can consider planets over 5 degrees above the ASC to still be placed in the first house. These are:

Whole Sign
Vehlow-Raman aka Indian Equal
Sripati

Mark

Mentioning Gauquelin reminded me of what he said when somebody asked him what Pluto in the Gauquelin zones denotes, and he replied a researcher and that he had it himself. I have Pluto in the Gauquelin zones too. Very different from politicians like George Galloway and Nigel Farage who have Pluto exactly conjunct their Ascendants, Farages's being slightly in his first house. I think Jeremy Paxman called George Galloway a demagogue, which might be unfair but it is a very out there and in your face kind of Pluto these guys have, Pluto for show?

Fleur wrote:

Mentioning Gauquelin reminded me of what he said when somebody asked him what Pluto in the Gauquelin zones denotes, and he replied a researcher and that he had it himself.

Strange if he stated that. I was positive Gauquelin mentioned several times in his books he found no discernable evidence for the statistical prominence of the outer planets in his research on successful nativities. Only the Moon and the five visible planets.

Mark

Mark wrote:Fleur wrote:

Mentioning Gauquelin reminded me of what he said when somebody asked him what Pluto in the Gauquelin zones denotes, and he replied a researcher and that he had it himself.

Strange if he stated that. I was positive Gauquelin mentioned several times in his books he found no discernable evidence for the statistical prominence of the outer planets in his research on successful nativities. Only the Moon and the five visible planets.

Mark

I remember reading what he said about Pluto denoting researchers and that he had it himself, but can't remember where. I will try to remember.

Fleur wrote:

I remember reading what he said about Pluto denoting researchers and that he had it himself, but can't remember where. I will try to remember.

Ok. I will be interested in anything you find on that.

Gauquelin's Pluto was over 30 degrees from his ASC but i think you are right that this still fell within one of his plus zones:

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Gauquelin,_Michel

https://www.msu.edu/~urban/kepler/sympo ... sld032.htm

Incidentally did you know the hellenistic astrologer/translator/scholar Robert Schmidt has Pluto on the ASC?

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Schmidt,_Robert

I probably need another moderator to step in at this point and tell me I have wandered wildly off topic here.

Mark